§ 2.40 p.m.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the light of the conclusions of the inquiry into the Cairngorm disaster of November, 1971, and in view of the value of adventure training 930 out of doors, they would take steps for the guidance of potential users, to make an authoritative survey of the standards and qualifications existing in the various organisations which provide such activities for the young, with a view to making recommendations for standards of professional expertise and equipment within such organisations.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has already given advice on safety, training and experience to those responsible for parties of young people on outdoor expeditions. The recommendations of the jury at the fatal accidents inquiry into the Cairngorms tragedy are now under study. My right honourable friend will bear the noble Lord's suggestion in mind in considering any further action.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that helpful and encouraging reply, may I ask one further question? Until there is some tightening up of the training and leadership regulations, would my noble friend inform the local education authorities of the existence of the independent centres such as the Moray Sea School, the Loch Eil Centre, the Sutherland Centre and the Applecross Centre where skilled and well-trained leadership is provided?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I share my noble friend's admiration for the centres that he has mentioned, and indeed my noble friend gives three of them a grant. But there are also other centres run by education authorities which give a very good standard of training, and as education authorities are the responsible bodies to make these decisions it is they who must decide to which centre their pupils should be sent.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, since the noble Baroness has rightly advertised some of the Scottish centres, may I ask her to bear in mind also places like Plas y Brenin and would she also give consideration to whether further resources are needed to support one of the most valuable social institutions of leisure? May I at the same time ask I the noble Earl who leads the House to 931 consider whether this is a matter which the new Select Committee on Leisure and Outdoor Recreations might examine?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVLEMy Lords, I am glad to say that my noble friend has said Yes, that this matter will be considered. Of course one would like to pay tribute to all other centres of this standard. So far as future or greater financial support is concerned, this is the kind of matter which will also come under study when we are considering the recommendations of the jury.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that we are very grateful for that Answer? Following the question asked by my noble friend on the Front Bench, may I say that, due to present day affluence, we welcome the initiative that the young people of to-day are taking, not only on the mountains but at sea. Consequently, would the noble Baroness bring to the notice of her noble friend the fact that not only in mountaineering but in sailing, too, some adequate training is needed for the young before they venture too far out to sea without the knowledge of how to use sail?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, may I express agreement with the noble Lord? One of the centres referred to by my noble friend Lord Balerno was of course the Moray Sea School; and the jury, in their recommendations on the Cairngorms tragedy said that they did not in any way wish to discourage the spirit of adventure among young people.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that this year the Cairngorms have excellent snow, whereas it is very doubtful in Switzerland?
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that those of us who work with groups of children and have to consider where danger may occur, are of the opinion that where there is a sensible set of safety rules which are generally kept there is no danger at all, but that where you have slackness in the group of instructors or leaders and you have a fairly general breaking of these rules, disaster is almost inevitable?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I agree that even on our Scottish mountains, although the snow there is better than in other places known to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, conditions can be as dangerous as on some of the highest mountains in Europe.
§ LORD HUNTMy Lords, is the Minister aware that whereas nearly 10,000 certificates have been issued by the Joint Mountain Leadership Training Boards for England, Wales and Scotland, which imply a general competence among adults to take young people into the mountains, only about 50 winter certificates have so far been issued, in relation to competence under snow conditions, and that in Scotland? Does this not enjoin particular caution upon those local education authorities, youth organisations and other bodies who encourage, and rightly encourage, young people to go into the mountains? If the Minister will accept a further question, is she further aware that the Mountain Leadership Training Board has recently appointed a national officer with outstanding mountaineering qualifications whose duties include liaison between mountain training centres, the local education authorities and other potential users of these centres, and will she consider urging the local education authorities to seek advice of this officer in matters of mountain safety?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, my information is that in Scotland alone 61 winter certificates have been granted, and 540 basic summer certificates. So far as the second part of the noble Lord's question is concerned, I should like to say that it is just this kind of matter that is now under consideration with all these bodies concerned, including the education authorities.