§ 3.21 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government how the fact of Pakistan leaving the Commonwealth will affect the position of Pakistan citizens in the United Kingdom.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, citizens of Pakistan will remain Commonwealth citizens in our law until Section 1 of the British Nationality Act 1948 is amended.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I say that I agree—
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that I agree with the decision of Her Majesty's Government? It is the civilised decision, but it may not be strictly practical. May I further ask my noble friend what is the position of Pakistan nationals who now want to enter the United Kingdom? Are they Commonwealth citizens or are they aliens? What description applies to them?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I am glad to know that the Government can count on the support of the noble Viscount in this matter. The position is unchanged until the British Nationality Act is amended. This is something which needs the most careful consideration.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is it not highly irresponsible for any person to stir up among the Pakistani community in this country anxieties as to their future right to remain here, and will the noble Lord deplore the statements which have been made by various people, including particularly Mr. Powell, on this subject?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it would not be right for me to comment 309 on statements made by right honourable and honourable Gentlemen who are Members of another place. The Home Secretary has said that the Government intend to review the position, and to do so in our own time. It is not something to be hurried; and we hope that perhaps the present decision of Pakistan to withdraw from the Commonwealth is not irreversible.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, if action is to be taken against the Pakistanis, it would be equally logical to take action against the Southern Irish, which might lead to a very serious reduction in the membership of your Lordships' House?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the British Nationality Act 1948 distinguishes quite clearly between the Republic of Ireland and Commonwealth countries.
§ LORD REIGATEMy Lords, would my noble friend say what the current position is with regard to the powers of the courts to recommend deportation, since the conditions are of course quite different and the matter arises under a different Act?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, as I explained in my original Answer, the position of citizens of Pakistan in this country is not changed in any way, and will not be until the British Nationality Act 1948 is amended.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether, if there were a change in the position of Pakistanis in this country, he can tell me how many doctors would be affected?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, we need to be clear about this. Even if citizens of Pakistan were to be treated as foreign nationals after legislative changes had been made, the continued stay of those who had been admitted for settlement would not be endangered in any way at all.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord for an assurance on the position 310 of students from Pakistan, both on Commonwealth grants and on grants from private education trusts? Would what he has just said in reply to my noble friend apply equally to them?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, under the Immigration Act I971, which your Lordships passed in the last Session, and the Immigration Rules which will be made under that Act when it comes fully into operation, students and visitors from Commonwealth countries will be in very much the same position as those admitted from non-Commonwealth countries. So there should not be any great difference in practice.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether, following the withdrawal of South Africa from the Commonwealth, it was necessary to pass legislation to amend the Nationality Act on that occasion, and whether one can assume that, if Pakistan remains with its present decision not to continue as a member of the Commonwealth, legislation along similar lines will be necessary in this House?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMThat would be so, my Lords. Legislation did follow in the shape of the South Africa Act 1962. I think that those of your Lordships who were concerned with the legislation at the time will remember that it followed only after proper consideration had been given to the changes that were necessary.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he thinks that this continual series of questions about hypothetical events is not really rather obstructive?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it would be an unfortunate precedent if Ministers from this Box said which contributions they thought were obstructive or otherwise.