§ 2.42 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are aware of the phenomenal increase of "juggernaut" road transport entering this country through Dover last year, and whether they realise the unsuitability of the A.2 Dover/Canterbury road for such traffic.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is aware that there was a large increase in the number of road haulage freight vehicles passing through the port of Dover in 1971. Plans are well advanced for improving the A.2 to dual-carriageway standards to meet the recent and expected increase of traffic on this route.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Is he aware that in the last five years this type of traffic through Dover has increased twelve-fold? May I also ask my noble friend whether he is aware that not only is this a matter of congestion but also that many of the houses along the route are having their foundations seriously affected? In ally case I am satisfied with my noble friend's answer.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that much heavier vehicles are used on the Continent; and although they are temporarily restricted here, is it not a fact that when we enter the Common Market we shall be obliged to accept heavier vehicles than even our present-day vehicles?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I do not think that is quite right. The Common Market countries at present allow up to 42 tons. As the noble Lord and the House are aware, we have restricted our gross weight to 32 tons, and we are now in consultation with the E.E.C. bodies on this matter. 6 A final decision has not yet been reached. We have already given them our opinion and are continuing to do so.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, do these discussions include the question of preventing any further extension to width or length of vehicles beyond what is allowed under our present regulations?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think I am right in saying that the only big difference is in weight. In Britain the maximum width is 2½metres and the length 15 metres; I think that in the Common Market the length is 15½metres but there is no difference in width. So I do not think we are really at issue here.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that not only the foundations of the houses but the foundations of our economy are being shaken by this apotheosis of lorries and transport? Could we not reverse some parts of the Beeching Plan and get some of this nefarious traffic back on to the railways?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that is a different question. If the noble Lord would like to put down a Question on that specific point, I shall be glad to provide the answer.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, my noble friend spoke of the permitted weights difference between us and the E.E.C. and said that we were awaiting the E.E.C. decision—
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords, with great respect, I did not say that. I said that at present the E.E.C. allow up to 42 tons and we allow up to 32 tons; and this tonnage is about to be enforced by law. We are already entering into the E.E.C. consultations on what is to be the future limit in the E.E.C. The E.E.C. have not yet made a permanent decision. We are in continuous consultation with them.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, I apologise if I misquoted my noble friend, but may I ask what will happen to the roads in this country if in future the E.E.C. do not agree with our limit of 32 tons?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, they cannot make their decision without our consent. By the time 7 such a decision is made, if it is made—this is all hypothesis—we shall be that much further forward.
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, can the noble Lord remind us which Government denationalised road transport, thereby probably creating the present situation?
§ LORD RAGLANMy Lords, following on the question from the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, if we join the Common Market do we have to conform to their regulations concerning gross weight of lorries or can we go on making regulations of our own?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, we shall not conform to "their" any thing; we shall be part of the E.E.C.
§ LORD RAGLANMy Lords, the noble Lord has only half answered the question. Will this country, Great Britain, still be able to continue making separate rules regarding the gross weight of lorries after we have joined the E.E.C.?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the rules will be made to the mutual benefit of all. If one country finds them absolutely impossible its views will be listened to with reason.
§ LORD RAGLANMy Lords, might not the conclusion we come to be to our disadvantage?
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware of the amazement there will be on the part of our licensing authorities when they hear that there is no difference between 15 metres and 15½ metres? Is he aware that in the circumstances half a metre is quite lengthy?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords.