§ 11.10 a.m.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what consideration is being given to the possibility of a development of the railway system in order to minimise the ever-increasing congestion on the roads in this country.
1200§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the current rail policy review will take full account of social, economic and environmental factors, including road congestion.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that at the present time, according to the Press, freight is being refused by the railways and driven on to the roads owing to a shortage of rolling stock? Is not a thorough-going inquiry required to see what new developments may be introduced in order to maximise passenger and freight traffic on the railways and minimise the road congestion?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I would agree with the latter part of my noble friend's supplementary question. That is what the Railways Board and the Department of the Environment are doing at the present moment. I am not aware of freight having to be refused because of a lack of rolling stock. We are giving more money to the railways this year than for a long time—we are giving over £140 million. We must get the thing right, my Lords. I know there are troubles, but we do not want to rush our fences over this matter.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, will the noble Lord develop his supplementary answer, in which he said that the Department of the Environment is doing something? Could he tell us what the Department is doing and what it has done?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the Department of the Environment and the Railways Board are both carrying out a series of studies.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord able to give some indication of when the Government will arrive at a decision on the suggested reorganisation of the railways? Is he aware of the Motion in my name on the Order Paper, which we hope may be debated early in the New Year? Will the noble Lord ensure that the Government's decision on this famous paper will be made available to all before that debate takes place? Would he also have another look at the reply he has given to the assertion that the Railways Board have been refusing traffic because of the shortage of 1201 rolling stock? Surely this is a fact acknowledged by British Rail. Is it not the Government's duty to be more on the alert to this type of difficulty?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the Board of British Railways are in touch with us, and, as I have said, we are giving extra grants. In answer to the noble Lord's question about his Motion on the Order Paper, I cannot give him the assurance for which he asks, because when the review is received it will need further study. But he has the assurance of my right honourable friend the Minister for Transport Industries in another place that as soon as he gets the review and has studied it he will put it to Parliament and the public so that we can all see what is necessary.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, following on the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Grimston of Westbury, which I support 100 per cent., may I ask what the Govcernment are going to do about the effect of V.A.T. on the railways, which apparently will increase costs, and so will lead to increased fares at a time when the performance of British Rail compares favourably with railway systems in Austria, Italy, Germany, France and other European countries?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am not aware of all the statements that the noble Baroness has made, but I will certainly look into what she has said.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, can the noble Lord give an assurance that my noble friend Lord Popplewell, as the result of his endeavours to find out what is in this famous report, for the debate that we are to have in the New Year, will not be subject to police interrogation?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that is a red herring which I do not think I will swallow.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would the noble Lord make sure that the Department of the Environment are aware of the freight implications of exploration of those blocks that have been licensed in the North Sea, inasmuch as they appear likely to involve a volume of freight around 700,000 tons a year to points North of Aberdeen which, if not 1202 accepted by the railways, will mean a traffic of something like 270 30-ton trucks every working day on the A.9 and the A.94 together?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, it is to identify problems precisely such as the noble Earl has put to the House that these studies and discussions are taking place.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that these facts have been known for a long time but have been ignored?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, they have not been ignored. I can assure the noble Earl that we are looking at the whole situation with the object of deciding what we can do.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEThese figures and this point were raised in the Scottish debate the other day and received no answer at all.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, just to remind us, can the noble Lord say who is carrying out this review and what its extact extent may be?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the British Railways Board have been carrying out the review. They will put it to the Minister, who will look at it with the Department of the Environment. It will be put to Parliament and the public, and we shall all be able to discuss it.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, can the noble Lord say at what date this was submitted to the Government by British Rail?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords; I cannot say that.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, does not my noble friend think that a wider review than one simply undertaken by the British Railways Board and the Department of the Environment is necessary in order that independent minds can be brought to bear on the problem?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the review has been widely considered by the Board. I can give the noble Lord, Lord Popplewell, the assurance that I am hoping that it will be submitted to the Government in the 1203 not too distant future. I can assure him that it will not go on beyond next year.
§ THE EARL OF KINNOULLMy Lords, can my noble friend say whether the review will be published?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords; it will be published and discussed.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Lord is ignorant of the statistics, for his information may I send him the statistics from the public enterprise group, which sets them out very clearly and concisely?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, can the noble Lord tell us whether this review is wide enough for the Department of the Environment also to consider transferring cargo traffic to the waterways?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I do not think the British Railways Board have been working on that aspect of the matter. They have enough to work on on their own plate.