§ 2.38 p.m.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now prepared to permit a new design for London taxi cabs, since, with the abolition of running boards, old or infirm people have great difficulty in getting in and out of the present cabs.
THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS)My Lords, the design of London taxi cabs is a matter for the manufacturers, but it must conform to coditions of fitness laid down by the Assistant Commissioner of Police as licensing authority. There is nothing in the current conditions of fitness which would preclude the licensing of a cab with a running board. The Assistant Commissioner is always prepared to consider any new design which may be submitted to him.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, since putting down this Question I have found out that there are one or two taxi cabs that have steps or running boards. May I ask my noble friend whether Her 943 Majesty's Government could consider making regulations that in the future all new taxi cabs should have either a running board or a step to assist elderly and infirm people getting in and out of the vehicle?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSYes, my Lords, my noble friend is quite right; there are some with steps at a height of 11½ inches from the ground. As for the question of making regulations, this is a fairly complicated area of the law. I note that the conditions of fitness include a requirement that the steering wheel must be on the offside of the vehicle; but whether we, or the police, can also include a requirement for a step is something that I should like to look into, if my noble friend would allow me.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that in fact nothing is beyond the powers of a Home Secretary?
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, speaking as an aged and infirm person who has great difficulty in getting into a car with a running board, especially a sports car, may I suggest that it is really unnecessary to alter the design of taxis? There is only one way for an aged and infirm person to get into a car and that is to deposit one's behind on the seat and then to collect one's feet. Unfortunately one cannot do that in reverse when getting out.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I will consider the idea of putting in the conditions of fitness a diagram that would fulfil the suggestion of the noble Baroness.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the seat in a taxi cab is 5 feet off the ground?
LORD FARINGDONMy Lords, if the Minister is considering alterations to taxi cabs, will be consider whether or not they should be allowed to carry the five passengers for which they are designed?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I did not say that we were considering the design for taxicabs. This is primarily a matter for manufacturers. The conditions of fitness deal with certain matters, and they are controlled by the Metropolitan Police. Certain minimum 944 requirements may be involved. It would not be for my right honourable friend to make this imposition on his own account, despite what my noble friend says. But I will bear in mind the noble Lord's suggestion.
§ VISCOUNT BRENTFORDMy Lords, does my noble friend appreciate that this is a serious question for a great many people, and will be see what can be done in order to alleviate their distress and difficulties?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I appreciate that this is a serious question, but there are three different types of taxicab operating at the moment. There is the ordinary one, the Austin, with a 15-inch distance between the ground and the step, which is the most that is allowed under the conditions. Then there is the Winchester, to which my noble friend Lord Derwent referred. There is another one, which I think has a 12½inch step; but the manufacturers made only one of them, and apparently it has not gone very well on the market. This is the sort of trouble that arises.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, will the noble Viscount take into consideration the fact that a quite abnormal proportion of taxi hirers are elderly or disabled persons, for the simple reason that in many cases taxis are the only form of transport which they can use? For this reason it is particularly important that taxis should be equipped in such a way that they are useful to such persons.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I do not think I can take the noble Viscount's statistics entirely unsupported by evidence, but I think that the sense of the questions has already made it plain that we ought to look into the matter of a suitable step. But it would have to be done in consultation with the manufacturers, the police and the people who buy taxis in order to put them on the streets.
§ LORD PLATTMy Lords, am I not right in thinking that the abolition of steps on motor cars and on taxis is due to the spread of American culture to this country? Am I not also right in thinking that steps were given up in the United States because they were a useful platform from which gunmen could threaten taxi drivers and other drivers? Will Her 945 Majesty's Government look into this point very seriously before they start putting steps back again?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I will see that consultations take place on the matter between Coventry and Detroit.
§ LORD PLATTMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that I was interested in what he said about the design being a matter for the manufacturers, and in the fact that the police must be brought into consultations? But how can such a statement stand up against what happens in the Post Office, which is one of our greatest social services? The Post Office are at liberty in the design of their vehicles, and in everything else connected with their operation.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I am very willing to consider what the noble Lord, Lord Slater, has said, but I am not at the moment absolutely sure how it bears upon the design of taxicabs. However, I shall study carefully the Report of what he said.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the fact that the categories of people whom the noble Viscount said he may consult are probably in the lower age group—perhaps between 20 and 30—how can he hope that they will see the problem of the aged and the sick?
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, I did not say that I would consult any specific people. I do not know the age of the Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police; I do not know the average age of the taxi drivers, and I do not know the average age of the manufacturers of taxis. I do not think that anything of the sort the noble Baroness suggested can be read into my answers.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, the noble Viscount must be more compassionate and not quite so smart. Did he not mention three categories—the designers, the taxi-drivers and another category? It struck me, as he mentioned them, that those people who would decide this issue were not exactly the people who would understand the problem. There- 946 fore I was suggesting that the noble Viscount might also invite categories of people who have this problem very much at heart.
VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSSMy Lords, it is perfectly plain from the discussion that has taken place this afternoon that all we are concerned about is to secure a design that is suitable for those who, either through age or as a result of other incapacity, are unable to get easily into a cab with a high step. Once that has been established as being a problem then, with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, I do not see that it matters how old the designers are, so long as they know the purpose of their designing.