HL Deb 07 December 1972 vol 337 cc366-9

3.6 p.m.

LORD HALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent the problem of the use on British roads of heavy lorries and articulated vehicles far exceeding in size or weight the present normal limits was discussed at the preliminary negotiations for British entry into the Common Market; what decision was reached; and by whom future final decisions will be made.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD)

My Lords, the size and weight of lorries was not discussed during the entry negotiations, the Community at that time having no legislation on the subject. Final decisions on the present proposals are for the Council of Ministers.

LORD HALE

My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether, when the Government won the "battle of the Bill" without the loss of even a semi-colon, they were aware that this would create a locus pœnitentiœ in which we could take no part in decisions, while others could take decisions which would bind us? Could he say whether it was by chance that this extremely important question affecting this country, Eire and Denmark, is tabled for discussion on December 18, and whether proposals for savage increases in the size of these juggernauts are on the agenda? Thirdly, can the noble Lord say whether he has received any assurance that this decision will be postponed until after January 1? If not, is this a subject on which Her Majesty's Government's advisers will say that they are prepared to renegotiate?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I confirm that my right honourable friend will be present at the discussions on December 18 and 19 and he is reasonably hopeful that no final decisions will be taken.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, the noble Lord says, "reasonably hopeful". Is it not a fact that his right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has raised this matter'? Did the hope the noble Lord expressed arise from the approach made by the Foreign Secretary?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, it was based on that and a number of other factors. We are making our position on this matter abundantly clear.

LORD HAWKE

My Lords, can Her Majesty's Government make it clear to the European Commission that if this proposal goes through and we are forced to accept these things on our roads, there are very few roads on which we shall allow them to travel?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, that point has certainly been very strongly made already.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that some of us, due to the weight of this locus pœnitentiœ, are worried? If we get dignitaries like Prime Ministers "blowing their tops", what will happen to Mr. Speaker and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor?

LORD PEDDIE

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it lies within the powers of Britain, as a member of the Community, to make an independent decision on this matter, regardless of what is the practice on the Continent?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, independent decisions on this matter are not practicable. We could not have two separate codes operating in this country, one applying to our own operators and another to foreign lorries. It would be quite unacceptable.

LORD POPPLEWELL

My Lords, when we are full members, will it be possible to exercise a veto in this matter?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, the Six are being left in no doubt at all as to how important this issue is to us. We cannot forecast how the situation may change, but there will certainly be a new Commission.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, do the Government agree that if this matter is settled the wrong way before January 1 it will send our membership of the E.E.C. off to the worst possible start and will turn millions of people who would otherwise have been for it, against it?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, all I can do in answer to that question is confirm that we have made our view known that a final decision in advance of entry would be a most deplorable outcome.

LORD BRECON

My Lords, would my noble friend agree that the whole question is whether one raises the axle weight from 10 tons to 11 tons, and not regarding the size of the vehicle?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I confirm that the key issue in this matter is the axle weight.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, could my noble friend say whether, since this meeting is on December 19, a Statement will be made to this Parliament before we rise for the Recess?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I will put that point to my right honourable friend.

LORD SEGAL

My Lords, if the Government view prevails in Brussels, may we have an assurance that the Government will not rest on their laurels but will go ahead with all despatch on a much more active and vigorous modernisation plan for our existing roads?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I certainly agree that that matter opens up a whole range of very important issues, but it does not arise on this Question.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is it not true to say that, during the frequent debates we had on the issue of whether or not we should enter the Common Market, it was stated over and over again that if we joined the club we must accept the rules? That was emphasised. What are we complaining about now?

LORD SANDFORD

We are not complaining, my Lords. My original Answer made it clear that on this issue there were no rules.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I fail to understand this because, if we are not complaining, it is very mystifying, since I understand that even the Minister of Transport in the United Kingdom Government has grave doubts about these juggernauts. Is there not a great deal of controversy about this issue? I repeat: when we decided to go into the Common Market with our eyes open did we think about the possibility of trouble about juggernauts or anything else?

LORD HANKEY

My Lords, may I impress on the Government the very wise suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord Segal? Would it not be very desirable to bear in mind the necessity for our imports and exports to enjoy equal facilities to reach the ports as are enjoyed by other countries? If we are going to increase axle weight, which looks rather probable, would it not be desirable for the Government to be giving consideration to the need for strengthening the roads that will be most involved'? Would not that be a great advantage for our industry?

LORD SANDFORD

I would not agree, my Lords, that it is in the least probable that we shall be increasing axle weight. The whole object of these negotiations is that we should not have to do so. As I said in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Segal, the problem of how to deal with heavy lorries in our own country is an enormous and complex issue which I shall be very happy to debate, but not on this occasion.

LORD HALE

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he did not answer my last point? Assuming that his earnest hopes are not fully gratified, will Her Majesty's Ministers renegotiate?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, we are not even near the end of the present negotiations. I cannot answer a hypothetical question about renegotiations.