HL Deb 09 August 1972 vol 334 cc1093-5

2.11 p.m.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether appointment to the offices of Captain of the Gentlemen at Arms and Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard is open to both men and women Peers.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

Yes, my Lords.

LORD GARDINER

My Lords, while thanking the noble Earl for that Answer, which I am sure will be favourably received by our women Peers, may I ask him whether, in the event of one of the women Peers being appointed to one of these offices, the "fancy dress" associated with the office will be provided by the State or whether she will be expected to pay for it herself?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, if the noble and learned Lord will give notice of that question I will give it the consideration that it undoubtedly deserves.

LORD MAYBRAY-KING

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that his first Answer will give tremendous pleasure to all who believe in the equality of the sexes?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I was aware that that might be so, but of course I was basing myself on strong precedents, in the knowledge of the fact that certainly two posts have been held by ladies. The position of Earl Marshal was held by Maud, Countess of Norfolk in 1245; and the post of Constable of England was also, I believe, held by a lady. I think the Dymoke family hold hereditarily the post of Champion of England, so that title, too, may have descended to a lady, though I am afraid that my historical researches have not carried me to the point of ascertaining whether or not it has. This again would have been a post which could have been held by a member of the "other sex".

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, can the noble Earl tell the House whether the uniform is normally provided for male holders of these offices by the State and, if so, why there should be any difficulty in following the same procedure, and in fact using the same uniform (to appropriate measurements) as it is quite customary for women to wear trousers, even in this House?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I believe that there is no difficulty here, except the fact that I have not the foggiest idea of the precise answer to the question raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger. I should have thought that it would depend upon the precise measurements of the holder of the office.

THE EARL OF ONSLOW

My Lords, will the noble Earl ensure that if a Lady is promoted to either of these offices she will ride side-saddle and not astride?

LORD CAMOYS

My Lords, might it be a good idea to design a suitable uniform in the style of Boadicea or something along those lines?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords. I suggest that these are all questions which, properly speaking, should be addressed to the Government of the day on these important matters.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, does the noble Earl's reply to my supplementary question imply that the measurements of all male holders of these offices are standardised?

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, in view of the fact that the Queen reviews the Troops in the appropriate uniform, may I ask why there is all this fuss? Can the noble Earl tell us when we may expect the first appointment?

EARL JELLECOE

My Lords, the answer to the noble Baroness's second supplementary would depend on the Prime Ministers of the day and on the talents available. In answer to the first supplementary, I assure her that, so far as I know, there is no fuss.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, there seems to be a degree of fuss about the uniforms, measurements and so on. May we be told what special talents noble Lords on the Government Front Bench possess that women do not have?

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, will the noble Earl arrange that possible candidates for either of these posts might sit on the Government Front Bench instead of disguising themselves among the Bishops?

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, the answer to both supplementary questions is that this is of course a Ministry of all the talents, both male and female, as can be seen on this Front Bench of your Lordships' House, though some of them have crept a little to the left for the moment.