§ 4.17 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, perhaps it might be convenient for the House to turn to a completely different subject, and I should like, if I may, to repeat a Statement which is being made now in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on the subject of Asians in Uganda who are holding British passports. The Statement is as follows:
"In a speech to troops on August 4, President Amin is reported to have said that he will ask the British Government to take over responsibility for all Asians in Uganda who are holding British passports, because they are sabotaging the economy of the country. Our High Commissioner in Uganda has asked to see the President to establish his reason for his statement and to obtain an indication of Ugandan intentions. We have had no official communication from the Uganda Government. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs is in touch with other East African Governments."
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness—and not wishing at this moment to go into the rights and wrongs of this question—whether the Government will do what many of us have urged for a number of months: initiate a conference between representatives of the Commonwealth Territories in Africa—Uganda, Kenya, Tanzania—and India, with a view to the solution of this very difficult problem?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEWell, my Lords, we did in fact have an arrangement with the Uganda Government in May of last year whereby we doubled the quota of vouchers to those who could come in, as well as giving a special allocation of 1,500 vouchers, and it was agreed that this would be observed. So far as we are concerned, this arrangement of an orderly entry into this country is still the one in existence.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the noble Baroness has not answered my noble friend's question. There may be good reasons for not having this conference. There may be reasons which the noble Baroness, for some reason, does not want to give. But since my noble friend has an unfortunate ability to be right when I do not always expect him to be right, the noble Baroness, if I may say so, would be rather well advised to answer his supplementary question.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I was seeking to explain to the House, in answer to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, that we already have an agreement at this moment with the Uganda Government. Therefore, to go on to the particular question, we do not at this moment see that it is necessary to have a conference until we know exactly what the facts are. We have had no official communication.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while appreciating that Her Majesty's Government must know the facts, may I ask, would it not be most desirable, since India is deeply involved in this issue, and particularly because the influence of Kenya might be extremely valuable in reaching a solution, to call the kind of conference that I have suggested?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I said in the original Statement that my right honourable friend is in touch with East African Governments on this issue. Of course that would also involve India in the sense that these extra vouchers were meant to help those of Indian origin.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, would not Her Majesty's Government agree that, though we undoubtedly have some responsibility for the Asians of British nationality in East Africa generally, our responsibility can be discharged only within the limits of the possible? That being so, would not the noble Baroness think that the announced policy—if it is a policy—of the dictator of Uganda is in itself inexcusable, and indeed incapable of execution, short of mass murder and starvation?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we certainly accept that these Asians who are holders 779 of British passports are our responsibility On the other hand we have always sought, and in fact had, an arrangement for their orderly entry into this country for their own benefit and also for the benefit of the people of this country.
§ LORD HARVEY OF PRESTBURYMy Lords, is it not a fact that the Uganda Foreign Secretary was in this country towards the end of last week and made a statement on British television on Saturday evening prior to leaving London airport? Is it not inexcusable for the Foreign Secretary of Uganda to come to this country as a guest and make a statement on television confirming what General Amin said without saying one word to Her Majesty's Government?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, that is exactly why our High Commissioner has sought an interview with President Amin.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I also heard the statement referred to by the noble Lord, and without wishing to prolong this discussion on what is an extraordinarily unsatisfactory situation, or to complicate the efforts which I trust are strenuously being made, may I ask the noble Lord if he will still bear in mind—because these issues are likely to arise in the future—the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Brockway?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I will certainly bear carefully in mind any suggestion which comes from any noble Lord. May I just point out that I am not yet a noble Lord?
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, would the noble Baroness say what is the subject of the communications between the High Commissioner and General Amin? Is it purely a question of ascertaining the exact meaning of his speech or speeches over the weekend? Would the noble Baroness confirm, as Mr. David Lane said, that we must accept ultimate responsibility for these people, and that if in the ultimate General Amin repudiates the Agreement he has with this country and throws the 40,000 United Kingdom passport holders out, we must accept the responsibility for bringing them into this country and making proper and orderly arrangements for their arrival? But, 780 nevertheless, would she represent to General Amin that such a thing is totally impossible physically within the space of three months, and that, if he wishes to alter those arrangements, it must be done in an orderly and progressive manner over a much longer space of time than he has allowed?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the purpose of the meeting requested by our High Commissioner in Uganda is, first of all, to find out whether Press reports are in fact accurate; and if so, what really is intended. Then will be the time to take action on some of the lines mentioned by the noble Lord.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there is at least one noble Lady who comes from North of the Border and who maintains that there is no such thing as a "Peeress" in your Lordships' House and prefers to be called a "noble Lord"?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, that is a fascinating comment of which I was not aware. I must study it.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness if, when considering the proposal I have made, she will bear in mind that this is now becoming an international question; that European Governments are refusing to receive these British passport holders and that the whole matter may be raised at the Human Rights Commission? In view of that fact, will the Government take active steps to bring about a conference as I have suggested?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the first thing the Government are trying strenuously to do is to find out the exact facts of the case. Then we shall have to decide how we are to sort it all out.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, will the noble Baroness bear in mind that, while we have a rather uncomfortable obligation to the Uganda Asians, we should also condemn this obnoxious kind of repatriation in which the President of Uganda is indulging?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I must repeat that we have yet to find out officially what 781 the facts are. We have heard a great deal about them. If they turn out to be true, of course we shall deeply regret it, particularly as many of these Asian holders of British passports have never been to this country and do not particularly want to come here.
§ LORD ALPORTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she does not agree that it is not helpful to the people under pressure in Uganda at the moment to carry on this form of questioning of Government policy, and that it would be far better if the matter were left now until the Government have full knowledge of the facts because this is a difficult and dangerous situation not for us but for Uganda and for the Asians there.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I quite agree with my noble friend.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, as the noble Baroness said that Her Majesty's Government have been in touch with other Commonwealth territories, can she say whether in effect Her Majesty's Government have been in touch with non-Commonwealth territories; in other words, other African or Malagasy Governments? Can she say whether in effect she would recognise that Madagascar is large enough to accommodate some of these Asians? They already have some Mauritian, Chinese and Indian nationals. Could not an approach be made to the Malagasy Government in exchange for further technical assistance, capital aid and private investment for them to accommodate some of these nationals? If the noble Baroness does not feel that an approach can be made direct to the Malagasy Government on this issue does she not feel that an approach could possibly be made to the French Government with a view to co-ordinating our policies in Africa and the Malagasy Republic?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, while I very much appreciate my noble friend's comments I really feel that we must first find out what the exact facts are. This is the whole point of what our High Commissioner is trying to do, because we hope that there will be second thoughts in Uganda and that the agreement we 782 have with Uganda will still be carried out.