§ 2.14 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the original plan to export American bombs from Sheerness was to exchange old stock in Berkshire for newer supplies; and whether Her Majesty's Government acquiesced in the subsequent diversion of those bombs to Indo-China for use in the war in Vietnam.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, as my right honourable and noble friend the Secretary of State for Defence said on July 17, the original plan to ship American explosives through British ports was part of a routine turnover of stocks. As my noble friend also explained on July 17 and again on July 20, these were American stores and the American forces are entitled to move them to meet their own needs provided that, within this country, they comply with our safety requirements.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that reply, may I ask her whether there is a difference in principle between American arms at bases in this country being exchanged for new arms for use in a possible war in which this country will be involved, and exporting those same bombs for a war in which we are not involved and to which a large section of our population is strongly opposed?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords. I do not think there is a question of principle here involved, because these are American stores and they are entitled to move them out as they wish, so long as they comply with our own very strict safety code.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness what was the date when the British Government were informed of this change in use of the bombs? Is she aware that I hold letters in my hand from the Ministry of Defence which show that until July 17, when I put my first Question, the Ministry of Defence thought that these bombs were only being exchanged?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the Ministry of Defence would not need to give any special authorisation for the export of these arms, provided they did not exceed the amount specified in the safety code. That is why, although the last movement was towards the end of June, no word had been received.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there is evidence that the quota of bombs which has been exported from Sheerness exceeds the quota which is permitted in the arrangements?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIENo, my Lords; that is not so. Had the quota been exceeded, a specific authorisation would have been needed from the Ministry of Defence.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Baroness's answer mean that nuclear weapons could replace conventional weapons without our being informed?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, these particular bombs were, I understand, of 750 lb. in weight, and the export also included 1,360 pallets of fins, but did not involve nuclear explosives.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness—with whom I have had sympathy up to now, on the ground that these were American bombs which they could move wherever they liked—could perhaps at a later stage give a rather fuller account of 156 what has transpired. Is she aware that it could be suggested—I am sure it would not be her intention—that this country is being used as a store to supply Vietnam? There could be circumstances where grave embarrassment was caused. It may well be that from my noble friend's indefatigable researches he has something that the Ministry of Defence do not know.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, despite what I quite agree are the indefatigable researches of the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, these particular explosives were shipped to Zeebrugge under commercial contracts in Belgian, British and Dutch ships. They were subsequently transferred to United States ships within the port areas, both across the quays and from ship to ship: but the destination from this country was of course to the port named.
§ LORD FOOTMy Lords, has the noble Baroness answered the question addressed to her by the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, as to whether her replies imply that we permit this country to be used as a store for the use of weapons which may be used in the war in Vietnam?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I do not think so. I sought to reply to that question in the Answer to the original Question on the Order Paper. The fact is that these are American supplies, and if they wish to renew their stocks, and in this case, as I understand, to bring in 500 lb. bombs instead of the 750 lb. bombs then so long as they comply with our safety code in this country, and therefore do not need any special authorisation, we are not aware of their ultimate destination.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I am sorry to pursue the noble Baroness, but is she really saying that these bombs are being removed only because better bombs are being brought here, or is this a somewhat disingenuous (I mean no offence to the noble Baroness) attempt to cover up the facts of the matter? It is the facts that we are after.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thought I was quite clear on the facts. I have said that these were sent across to the Continent by ordinary commercial contracts. 157 What happened after that is none of our concern. They came out of this country in the normal movement and replacement of stocks.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I am sorry to press this matter, but is the noble Baroness aware that I have in my hand a letter from the Ministry of Defence dated July 17, which was the day when I put my first Question, and the Ministry of Defence in fact said that they had understood that these bombs were for exchange, and it was not until July 17 that they knew these bombs were going to the war in Vietnam? Are our Government really going to accept British bombs in this country being exported from British ports for use in this war, which so many of our people regard as a criminal occasion?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I will only say to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, that perhaps he will not be surprised to learn that I also have a copy of that letter in my notes. But the fact remains that the movement of United States explosives through United Kingdom ports cannot be regarded as an indication of the attitude of Her Majesty's Government to any particular problem.