§ 3.10 p.m.
§ LORD MILFORDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will explain to the House the extremely friendly and cordial reception they offered the Commander-in-Chief of the Greek Junta's armed forces during his visit to this country in view of the fact that the Junta shows no signs of reintroducing Parliamentary democracy, and recently tried the scientist, Lady Fleming, before a military tribunal.]
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, General Angelis's visit was part of the regular pattern of visits paid by the Commanders in Chief of the armed forces of our NATO Allies and other friendly countries. He came at the invitation of the Chief of Defence Staff and was shown the courtesies normal on such occasions.
§ LORD MILFORDMy Lords, do not Her Majesty's Government agree that to associate with such a regime through the medium of NATO besmirches the democratic image of the British Government?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANNo,
my Lords, I do not agree with that at all. We consider the part that Greece plays in NATO to be one of great importance. At the same time, my Lords, as friends of the Greek nation and Greek people we have made them perfectly well aware of our hope that it will not be long before democratic processes are restored to that country.
§ LORD MAYBRAY-KINGMy Lords, as one who knows and loves Greece and her Greek people, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that the Parliamentarians of Greece—of what was Free Greece—including my friends the Speaker of the Parliament and the former Prime Minister, both of whom have suffered persecution simply because they believe in freedom, would welcome some gesture of moral support in their struggle to get back to the freedom for which they fought in the war and after it?
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, is the noble Marquess aware that the Greece that came into the war and stood beside us when we were alone against Nazi Germany, supported by Soviet Russia, was governed by a military dictatorship?
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend—
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, perhaps I may reply to the noble Lord who asked me the original supplementary question. Of course we are aware of the strong feelings that are roused by this matter, but the Question on the Order Paper is more specifically directed to the recent visit of General Angelis. As I am on my feet, may I tell the House that news has just been received that Lady Fleming's sentence has, on appeal, been suspended for eight months, on health grounds.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he interprets this Question as asking the British nation to have two classes of guests: first class guests who think that the Westminster model of parliamentarianism is a good thing; and second, third or fourth class guests who do not? Secondly, may I ask whether or not the noble Lord, Lord Milford, speaks for the Labour Party?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, only the noble Lord, Lord Milford, can answer that question.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess whether he is aware that the noble Lord, Lord Milford, who was one of the stars in the recent film on the House of Lords speaks for the Communist Party? Is he also aware that the question asked by the noble Lord and the purpose behind it, irrespective of whether Lord Milford is associated with the Labour Party, has a good deal of sympathy and support from this side?
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, following what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Maybray-King, may I ask whether the noble Marquess would agree that the Prime Minister of Greece did have consultations last August with a number of ex-parliamentarians in Greece with a view to introducing, in due course, a parliamentary regime in that country? Would he not agree that it would be better, instead of having constant misinformed criticism of that country, to adopt the attitude which Vice President Spiro Agnew took a few days ago in the Pelo 480 ponnese when he appreciated the achievements which were going forward under the present Greek Government? Would not noble Lords agree that that would be a better attitude?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I think I have stated what is the position of Her Majesty's Government on this matter: that we have repeatedly said, as friends of the Greek people, that we hope to see a return to democracy there as soon as possible.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the noble Marquess inform the House whether Lady Fleming's Greek passport will be restored to her, and also whether she is free either to remain in Greece or to leave the country according to her own wishes?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am afraid that I cannot tell the noble Lord the answer to those two questions. I have only received the news myself in the last few minutes; but if I hear any more I will let him know.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, will the noble Marquess make some inquiries about the progress of establishing a Fleming Institute in Greece? Will he be able to inform the House of any progress which has been made towards establishing that, as an indicator of our hope of a return to true democracy in Greece?—to say nothing of the model, so-called, of Westminster that stood alone when the rest of Europe was fighting against us.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I think that is a very much wider question.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, reverting to the original Question, are Her Majesty's Government aware of the very deep and wide feeling that it is inconsistent that our democratic nation should be associated with this oppressive regime which now exists in Greece; and that it is equally inconsistent for NATO, which claims to stand for the Free World, to continue to be associated with the Greek regime?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am quite aware that certain people hold those views; but they are not 481 the views held by Her Majesty's Government. As I said, we consider the partnership of Greece in NATO to have been extremely valuable in the defence of the Free World.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the fact that Lady Fleming has dual nationality, should we not make representations on her behalf and ask what exactly is to be her future—whether she is to remain in prison after the eight months or whether she will be able to return to this country?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that we shall be doing our best to find out what exactly is the position.
§ LORD MILFORDMy Lords, may I get back to my original Question? Is the Minister aware that there are 545 political prisoners in Greece, of whom, in spite of all denials,19 are women; and that the members of all Greek democratic Parties have said how discouraged they are at such gestures of hospitality, since the Junta interprets them as signs of support?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I am aware that there are a number of political prisoners still held in Greece. We are all aware of that. I do not think that that in any way invalidates the Answer given to the noble Lord's Question.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, would the Minister agree that there are political prisoners held in Russia and in various other countries; and is it suggested that we should break off relations with any Government if they do not conform to our own standards?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLIC'OE)My Lords, I feel that I should at the start of our spill-over Session, remind your Lordships of Standing Order No.33, which is that a star attached to a Question indicates that such a Question is asked for information only. I believe that in answer to some of the supplementary questions we are going rather wider than our Standing Orders would normally allow.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I am sure that the House will accept what the noble Earl has said. Could he, how 482 ever, tell us whether the noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, referred to the Westminster "model", or to the Westminster "muddle", because if so, I think he ought to consider the matter?
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, I do not think it necessary for any country to follow either.