HL Deb 12 October 1971 vol 324 cc306-9

2.39 p.m.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is correct that, prior to the holding of the IATA Conference in Montreal in June last, combinations of high and low season fares, and advance bookings and youth fares and limited period tickets had produced 52 categories of fare on the North Atlantic air routes; and, if so, what passengers were excluded from these categories, in so far as B. O. A. C. is concerned.]

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)

My Lords, apart from the merchant seamen's fare and the forces fare available to U. S. and Canadian forces stationed in Europe, there were eight categories of fare—first class, normal economy, two groups of individual excursion, youth fare, affinity group, incentive group and inclusive tour group. There was no advance booking fare. All these categories, except first class, were sub-divided whether according to season of year or time of week. In most cases children's and infants' discounts were available. Subject to the definition of the groups, these categories of fare were available to all members of the public, whether on B. O. A. C. or any other trans-Atlantic scheduled service airline. I confirm that the total number of different derivative fares exceeded 50.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I was waiting with some misgiving for the sub-divisions because I thought that the difference in our numbers was rather large? Will he not agree that, in so far as the general travelling public is concerned, numbers of different fares to this extent have really become rather an absurdity, and does he feel that Her Majesty's Government, through the two State airlines, could perhaps have a look at this matter?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the Government would favour a reduction in the number of types of fares, so as to simplify the tariff structure. But it is not unreasonable to charge higher fares in peak periods and at week-ends. This is of course the normal practice in order to encourage people to travel at other times.

BARONESS BURTON OR COVENTRY

My Lords, if I may ask one question on that, what I am really after is this. Does not the noble Lord agree that if there are as many as some 50 types of fare, it really seems rather hard on the few people who may be over 26, or who may not have budgerigars or other things, that they should be excluded from some fare that is cheap?

LORD DRUMALBYN

Yes, my Lords. I think there is a real difficulty here, which I am sure the noble Baroness appreciates, that in an organisation like IATA, which works on a unanimity rule, different advantages and disadvantages apply to different countries, and different countries will insist as part of the package agreement on getting what they want.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are in a position to make a statement concerning the IATA Conference commencing in Montreal on June 29 last for the purpose of discussing the introduction of cheaper fares on the North Atlantic routes; and whether the recommendations to be carried out as an experiment will present the public with 69 categories of fare.]

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the Montreal conference of IATA failed to reach unanimous agreement. Consultations between Governments are taking place with a view to bringing about further negotiations in IATA. The majority of airlines at Montreal accepted proposals that would result in 12 categories of fare and over 70 derivative fares.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, may I tempt the noble Lord, following his answer to my previous question, and ask if the Government would consider whether it might be useful to abandon the unanimity rule in IATA so that agreement might be reached more speedily?

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

My Lords, before my noble friend replies, I should say that I do not think it is strictly in order to tempt him.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, this point, of course, goes absolutely to the root of the constitution of IATA, which consists of independent airlines.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

Yes, my Lords, but I do not think that that is an answer to my supplementary question. If I may not use the word "tempt", may I ask the noble Lord if he could help me by saying whether it might be the attitude of Her Majesty's Government that the unanimity rule in IATA does not necessarily work either for speedy decisions or for the good of the travelling public?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, as I say, this is really fundamental. All countries, by unanimous agreement, would have to accept a change in the unanimity rule.

BARONESS EMMET or AMBERLEY

My Lords, is this not an argument against unanimity and in favour of free competition?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, this, again, is a fundamental matter but, as the noble Baroness is well aware, IATA has been hound by the finding of the Chicago Convention, which took place at the end of the war.

LORD BROWN

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that countries which meet together and agree to give up some of their rights of decision over fares cannot expect that a majority decision on the part of some of them will be accepted by the minority, and that that is the reason for the unanimity rule?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, the noble Lord has put it very well.

BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRY

My Lords, might I sum it up, then, by asking the noble Lord opposite whether he would think that the dissension of one person in IATA is enough to bolster up the unanimity rule?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, it is very regrettable that one person—and we know who the noble Baroness means in this case—is able to frustrate the wishes of the majority in this respect. As I said in my original Answer, Governments are pressing for a further meeting of IATA to resolve this question, and we hope that it will take place very soon.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he does not think that in the middle of all this there is a grave risk of the interests of passengers being entirely overlooked?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, without passengers the airlines would not run at all. I think this is the last thing that is likely to happen.