§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have noted the accumulation of dirt and litter in Central London and, since this reflects on the nation as a whole and may prejudice tourism, what steps do they propose to take to remedy the situation.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the cleansing of streets of litter and any other refuse is the responsibility of the appropriate London borough council. Roads in the Central London area are swept regularly and frequently, some several times a day. Collections of domestic and trade refuse are also made at frequent intervals in Inner London. In Circular 42/71, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State emphasised that the provision of 203 sufficient litter bins in suitable places and the provision of sites to which bulky rubbish may be taken at convenient times are measures which can help reduce the problems of litter and dumped rubbish.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that full Answer. I wonder whether he can help me by explaining what he means by "frequently". Also, is the noble Lord not aware that the streets in Central London, particularly during June, July and August, when we had many tourists, were an absolute disgrace for the capital city? While they may be the responsibility of the local authority, will the noble Lord consider whether steps can he taken for the mechanisation of cleansing, particularly of pavements? At the moment they are cleaned manually and it seems to me that this is utterly inadequate, because of the pressures that are placed upon the workers.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I fully appreciate the noble Lord's worry about this matter. We all have this worry. To deal with his last point first, I would point out that mechanisation is not always easy when there are parked cars. Manual labour is essential in order to get between wheels and kerbs and so on. The noble Lord asked what I meant by "frequently". I can only inform him that in places like Oxford Street mechanical collections are made up to six times a day, while in the most vulnerable places, like Trafalgar Square and Earl's Court, there are street orderlies. The borough councils have this duty fairly and squarely laid upon them and, as the noble Lord is well aware, it is not for central Government to interfere. Within their means, I think the councils are doing what they can. However, it is the Department's firm conviction that public education is the answer to this problem, and bodies such as "Keep Britain Tidy" are receiving all support from the Government.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, would it not be a good idea to punish the litter scatterers?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, my noble friend has said that. Last year we passed an Act which in 204 creased the penalties from a possible £ 10 fine to one of £ 100. But, still, penalties arc only a deterrent: we have to get public opinion supporting this.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is it not possible that we should get that support of public opinion if some of these people were fined £ 100?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, it has never been the policy of central Government to dictate to the magistracy and judges of this country, but the courts no doubt move with public opinion.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, I should like to support this—
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, the courts cannot move with public opinion unless the offenders are brought before them.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, I should like to support the noble Lord who asked this Question. Is the Minister aware that I complained recently about the refuse collection in our neighbourhood and I was told that they were short-handed? In view of the number of unemployed, could the Minister inquire into that side of the matter?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, if the noble Baroness will give me details of the streets in which she is interested, I will willingly pass them on to the borough council concerned.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, is the Minister aware that at noon to-day I was told by the dustmen who came to my house after a period of over a week that they were so short-handed that it was very doubtful that in Kensington they would be able to get a second collection in the week? Is that really satisfactory?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords. I can only inquire into specific details. Kensington has a very good record of service by way of refuse collection at the moment in most areas. and we have not had this complaint from a general area yet.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, my noble friend mentioned last year's amending legislation. Can he say how many prosecutions have taken place under that Act so far as concerns central London?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am afraid I should need further notice of that question.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in Singapore, from which I have just returned, there is a penalty of 500 dollars for dropping a piece of litter, that this penalty is strictly enforced, and that in the week I was there I never saw a single piece of litter in the streets?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am glad the noble Lord shakes his head, but would he not also accept that one of the problems in central London is the very large number of tourists, particularly youngsters, who come to this country, and that this question of litter really is a serious problem? It is a responsibility of the local authority, but could the Government give some guidance to them in getting the streets clean?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord is saying, and I will undertake that the Department will look at this matter. I can only repeat that we are trying to work voluntarily with public opinion through groups like "Keep Britain Tidy". We are supporting them in schools, and everything else; and publicity is important.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that prosecutions usually depend upon informations laid by private individuals and that people are not willing to lay such informations? It is very seldom that a police officer sees a person actually committing this offence, and that is the difficulty about getting a prosecution.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONI think that all points to the fact that a tap on the back is probably the most effective way.
VISCOUNT MONCKMy Lords, would my noble friend agree—I think this follows on what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, had in mind—that some of the tourists themselves may be responsible for a proportion of this litter? Would it not therefore be wise to consider that 206 the numerous litter receptacles around the City should be marked not only with the English word "Litter" but with the same word in French, Spanish, Italian, German and possibly Welsh?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I will pass on my noble friend's comments.
§ LORD HOYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord, if he is in fact going to look into this question, to inquire into the position at Gloucester Road and Cromwell Road, where a considerable number of people arrive from overseas? I think that in that particular area there is a need for a little more cleanliness.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords, I appreciate what the noble Lord is saying. I will certainly get the borough council concerned to look into it. But in that particular area, because there are so many people arriving, there is a traffic problem, which makes collection harder.