HL Deb 25 November 1971 vol 325 cc1147-9

3.13 p.m.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

y Lords, I beg leave ask the Question which stands in my Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are proposing to ask the members of E. E. C. to modify their more stringent rules on the use of colours and other food additives and to relax their rules on food labelling in order to facilitate the export of British food products.]

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the differences between our national legislation and the European Economic Community's legislation on food additives reflect different consumer tastes and technological needs rather than more stringent rules. We have agreed with the Community that there should be a joint examination of the additives which we have asked to be included in the E. E. C. 's permitted lists, against the criteria of safety in use and need. Those which satisfy these criteria will be added to the lists. Where this examination has not been completed by the date of our accession to the Community, the provisions of national legislation will continue to apply until either agreement has been reached or, if agreement cannot be reached, until the end of a transitional period of five years. The European Economic Community has, as yet, no general rules on food labelling.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, is the noble Earl not aware that, for example, in Germany the addition of many colouring and flavouring matters and other food additives is prohibited? Where it is permitted, distinct and clear labelling is enforced, unlike the rules in this country. Is it desirable that those more stringent standards in the interests of the consumer should be swept away?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, there are no common laws in the Economic Community for food labelling; there are national laws which each country carries out according to its own system.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that according to fresh reports in all reputable Press organs this morning, a section of the Commission made some concession yesterday on food additives, but at the same time they endeavoured to introduce various regulations which are regarded by the United Kingdom Government as objectionable?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the directives which are enforced cover only the colours, preservatives and antioxidants, and of those it is only the colouring matters on which there may be disagreement between ourselves and the Community. There are, for instance, ten colours which are common to both the Community and ourselves; there are nine colours which the Community have that we do not have, and there are fourteen colours which we have and the Community do not have, of which we have asked for only seven to be included.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, am I to understand from what the noble Earl has said that the people in the other countries in the Community who have hitherto been protected from food adulterated by colouring matter or other additives are now to be exposed to the risk of consuming these foods?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the tests on additives used in the Common Market are the same as those used in this country. They come under two headings: whether they are safe, and whether they are necessary. Both these points have to be borne in mind before the additives are permitted.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, is it not a fact that Germany has rules which are much more stringent than ours and which give far greater protection to their people than we receive in this country?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the protection which people receive in this country comes, as the noble Baroness will know, under the Food and Drugs Act. There are two Committees which have been set up by my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food: the Food Standards Committee and the Food Additives and Contaminants Committee. There is another Committee which has been set up on medical aspects of food policy which, in turn, has a sub-committee, the Pharmacology Sub-Committee, both of which advise the first two Committees on food standards.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, if it is true, as the noble Earl has said, that the standards on the Continent were established for preventing deleterious things from being included in the food, why should we want to depart from that and persuade the E. E. C. not to adhere to those standards?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the requirements of people in the Community are different from the requirements of people in this country. I will give one instance: kippers require a certain kind of colouring in this country which is not used in foreign countries. That is the reason why there is this great difference.

LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCH

My Lords, are human beings different in Germany from people here? Are they less susceptible or more susceptible to poisons?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, with respect, I suggest that these are not poisons, because the standards which are used in the Common Market countries are the same as are used in this country. As I said earlier, this is with regard to need and safety in use.

LORD CONESFORD

Lords, since the Minister has the tremendous advantage of knowing what the word "additive" means, I wonder whether he could arrange that it should appear in some reputable dictionary.

LORD FERRIER

My Lords, can the noble Earl give this House an absolute assurance that the position of the kipper in our national dietary will be safeguarded?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think that I can easily give that assurance.

LORD ROBBINS

My Lords, could the noble Earl explain the meaning of the term "requires" when he says that the kipper requires a certain colouring?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think the noble Lord had better consult my noble friend's dictionary.