SCHOOL MILK (Hansard, 24 November 1971)

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE. DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BELSTEAD)
My Lords, returns from 144 of the 163 local education authorities in England and Wales so far available show that on the day of the survey 23 authorities in England and 3 in Wales had made arrangements for the sale of milk to children in primary schools. I understand from my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland that up to the 16th November 5 authorities in Scotland had made similar arrangements in their areas.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for a reply that can give satisfaction to no one, may I inquire whether it does not mean that the overwhelming majority of children in that age group are denied any opportunity of having a drink of milk while they are at school?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
No, my Lords; the noble Lord, with respect, has not drawn the right conclusion. I think it will take some little time for the new arrangements to settle down. The survey of school milk and meals was, after all, carried out only a few weeks after the beginning of this term, and I think a new survey to-day would show different 994 results. It seems to me that in his supplementary question the noble Lord has also completely disregarded medical milk and the sale of milk.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, I did not completely disregard medical milk; I was having regard to children not getting it. May I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that some children in this age group have been denied or forbidden to take milk to school to drink?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
No, my Lords. Power is given in the circular which my right honourable friend sent out, and any school and any local education authority can avail themselves of it. If the noble Lord has in mind a particular case, it is a matter for the local education authority concerned, and I hope that the noble Lord will take it up where it should be taken up; namely, with them.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, when the noble Lord said "No", did he mean "No", he was not aware of what my noble friend had just said'? And is he suggesting that my noble friend should go to the local authority rather than to the responsible Minister?

§ Loan BELSTEAD
My Lords, I am sorry if the beginning of my answer was somewhat equivocal. What I mean is exactly what the noble Lord said at the end of his question: I mean that the noble Lord should go to the local education authority concerned.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, is it not a matter of concern to the Department (I have here a Press cutting which makes it clear that what I have said is correct) that children are being forbidden to take milk to school?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
Yes, my Lords, it is of great concern, as the noble Lord will see if he reads paragraphs 11 to 14 of the circular which was sent out.

§ BARONESS GAITSKELL
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell us what reason there is for not allowing children to take their own milk to school?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
My Lords, I think I have indicated to the House that this is for the discretion of headmasters of schools and for local education authorities.

§ BARONESS BACON
My Lords, does the answer which the noble Lord gave to the noble Lord on the Front Bench mean that in future Members of this House will be advised to go to local authorities, and that the Department of Education and Science are not now going to answer for local authorities on education?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
No, my Lords. With respect to the noble Baroness, in this matter, as in many matters which, as she will remember, she has handled in the past, we have given advice through a circular. What we cannot do is to give directions to people who in the education world are academically free.

§ BARONESS BACON
My Lords, I think the noble Lord has completely misunderstood what I was asking. Is he saying that in future when we desire to know what is happening in local authorities it is not the right of noble Members of this House to inquire of the Minister to whom the local authorities are responside?—because that is so. If the is taking this attitude, is he aware that it means that we shall be able to ask very few questions on education policy.

§ LORD BELSTEAD
My Lords, I am sorry, but I think I have given the wrong impression to the noble Baroness. If she wants information about education, I am always at her disposal and at the disposal of the House. I like to think that I sometimes give over-wearingly full answers. But that is not what I am being asked to give at the moment. What I am being asked is whether my right honourable friend will give a directive; and the answer is, No.

BARONESS SUMMER SKILL
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the majority of doctors in Marylebone, which has the highest concentration of doctors in the country, including of course the specialists, have recommended that these children should be given milk, as it was given before the Government came into office? Is this recommendation going to have no effect upon the Government? Are they not considering a reversal of their policy?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
No, my Lords; we are not considering a reversal of policy. The take-up of medical milk, 996 into which we have now strayed, differs considerably from area to area. This is what I can tell the noble Baroness from the returns that we have so far received.

§ LORD BESWICK
My Lords, the noble Lord has said quite categorically that it is not for his Department to interfere with the discretion of local authorities on matters of education, at any rate in this field. Will he now say, therefore, that local authorities will be entitled to exercise their discretion as to whether or not they should provide free school milk?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
Yes, my Lords; within the law.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, does not the Minister appreciate that in point of fact the Secretary of State for Education and Science is responsible for directing local education authorities that they must not supply free milk?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
My Lords, we seem to have got so many negatives in that one question that I must say I have been unable to follow the noble Lord. May I for the last time make it quite clear that a power was given in the Bill, and not a duty. Therefore a circular of advice was sent out, and not a directive. This is the situation, and it is one that my right honourable friend deeply believes to be right in the balance between local authority power and the power of central Government.

§ LORD PARGITER
My Lords, is the noble Lord in effect saying that if a circular has been sent giving advice, and if that advise is not heeded in any particular circumstances, the Minister is not prepared to take any further action on representations being made to her?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
No, my Lords, certainly not. We should try as far as we could, obviously, to see that local authorities used their power as fully as possible; but once again it is a power and not a duty.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, does not the noble Lord appreciate that his Answer— and we have sympathy for him— has given a total lack of satisfaction, I think throughout the House?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS
No.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
Does the noble Lord realise that lie has the full 997 support of the Conservative Party in denying milk to children?

§ LORD BELSTEAD
My Lords, we are not denying milk to children. Milk is already being sold in schools from which it was withdrawn by the Government of the Party opposite a few years ago. This is not quite an accurate suggestion.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD BELSTEAD
My Lords, no local education authority in England is supplying free milk to pupils between 7 and 11 years of age who are not entitled to it on grounds of health. In Wales one authority and in Scotland four authorities are supplying free milk to their children. One authority in Scotland is supplying free milk to primary pupils over 7 who take school meals. I understand that a small number of local authorities which are not local education authorities are using their pre-decimal penny rate power under Section 6 of the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act 1963 to supply free milk to children between 7 and 11 resident in their areas. To my knowledge only one authority is supplying an alternative mid-morning drink to pupils of this age group, and that on a limited pilot scheme basis.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, again while thanking the Minister for a reply that is not too satisfactory, may I ask him whether he knew that I had inquired about the number of local authorities supplying free milk and that I had in mind those who are using the penny rate to do so? I would have thought it reasonable for that information to be available. May I now ask him whether he does not think it extremely regrettable, and a denial of local freedom, that local authorities which are education authorities do not enjoy the 998 option enjoyed by other authorities; that is to say, to make the product of the penny rate available for the supply of free milk to children in this age group? LORD BELSTEAD My Lords, I apologise for not giving the noble Lord as full an Answer as he would have wished, but his Question was somewhat equivocal. The answer to his first supplementary is that 10 out of 12 Inner London boroughs and approximately 15 to 20 non-education authorities outside the London area, are using this power. As regards the suggestion contained in the noble Lord's second supplementary, this would require legislation and it is not the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce such legislation.

§ Loan GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, may I inquire from the Minister whether reports in the national Press are correct, that very great pressure has been brought to bear on authorities such as Merthyr Tydfil, which is one of the authorities supplying free milk, to withdraw it? Indeed, one of the national papers to-day uses the term "ultimatum".

§ LORD BELSTEAD
My Lords, we are not talking about pressure; we are talking about the state of the law which has existed since 1933 in England and Wales and since 1947 in Scotland. The situation in Merthyr Tydfil, about which the noble Lord has asked me specifically, was discussed on November 19 at a meeting between the Secretary of State for Wales and a deputation which the education authority had asked to see him; and by the wish of the deputation, and not merely by that of the Secretary of State for Wales, my right honourable and learned friend made no comment while the council was considering the matter further in the light of this discussion.