§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether information and expertise on nuclear potential in possession of the United Kingdom is to be made available to the French Government and whether NATO will be consulted.]
§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have received no request from the French Government for information or expertise in the nuclear defence field, nor have we offered to provide any.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that Answer, which is satisfactory so far as it goes. I noted that recently the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, engaged in conversations with one of his opposite numbers in Western Europe and there was a suggestion by himself that the Government might have in contemplation the formation of a Western European Defence Organisation. May I ask whether there was any consultation with NATO about that?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, in the conversations I have had with M. Debret no official proposals for the sharing of nuclear secrets have been made or received.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask whether the noble Lord regards the conversation as quite unofficial, and whether it really meant nothing at all?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, nobody should know better than the noble Lord, between Ministers of Defence are like.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in my experience when I was Minister of Defence or Secretary for War any discussions I had with my opposite numbers were of an official character? Sometimes they were confidential, it is true. But the noble Lord has not, in extenuation of his behaviour, suggested that these conversations with his opposite number were confidential, and therefore I think we are entitled to know what were they all about?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think that the noble Lord has misunderstood what I said. What I said was that in the conversations that I had with M. Debret no proposals were made, either by him or by me, about the sharing of nuclear secrets.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, were there any conversations about any know-how in our possession being conveyed to the French Government on any occasion? Is not the noble Lord aware that the Prime Minister has been engaged in conversations with M. Pompidou, and are we to understand that this subject of defence has never been mentioned at all?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am too much an admirer of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, not to believe that he has read very carefully what my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said in another place about his conversations with M. Pompidou, when he said there had been no discussion about a nuclear defence arrangement.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords—
§ LORD SHINWELL—I am sorry to pursue the matter but it is one of some importance, and the importance increases in view of the answers I have now received. May I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that, while I have some doubts about his policy, I have the highest regard for his ability and I read everything he says; and I regard what he says as being of the utmost seriousness, and that is the point of my question?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am glad.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, will my noble friend inform the House as to the exact position regarding nuclear cooperation between this country and France? If at the moment on a short-term basis such co-operation is not feasible, should we not be playing it on a long-term basis?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I would ask my noble friend to read the answers I have given. I think that the position is quite clear.