§ 2.42 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a system of lights warning pedestrians whether it is safe to cross a road at traffic lights could be introduced in places where a push-button system of pedestrian crossing is not warranted.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords. Whenever possible, and where justified, facilities for pedestrians are provided, and push-buttons are normally included so that the pedestrian phase operates only when required and does not hold up traffic unnecessarily.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the point of the Question is that these facilities for lights should be provided not only where there are pedestrian push-buttons but also at other crossings? Would he not also agree that, in view of the heavy casualties in built-up areas, this is certainly a measure which should be investigated to see what its cost-effectiveness is likely to be?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, where turning traffic is light or where pedestrians are few, it is the Department's view that adequate gaps do occur in the traffic flow and that there would not be justification for special facilities. But where any noble Lord, any local council or safety body feels that there is a necessity for special facilities the Department is only too willing to get its inspectors to look at it and, if necessary, recommend the local authority to take action.
§ BARONESS STOCKSMy Lords, would Her Majesty's Government consider this aspect of the question? I am not suggesting that cross-over lights should be installed where they do not appear to be necessary; but is the noble Lord aware that there are one or two places in Bayswater Road where, with the best will in the world, when traffic has stopped at a red light, you cannot as a pedestrian see the lights change? 653 All that you can do is to watch the traffic and draw an inference from its behaviour that it has stopped at a red light.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, where there is no junction involved we can always put a pelican crossing. There are usually secondary lights; so if you are at a junction you have only to look to the left. The safety code always recommends that the pedestrian should look at the traffic rather than at the lights involved.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, may I ask two further brief supplementary questions? First, does the noble Lord realise that the type of indicator I am recommending is very common in Continental countries? Secondly, is he fully aware of the point I am really making: that is, that at some traffic lights you have a lot of cars waiting; you see the light is red; you step into the middle of the road; the lights promptly change and you are mown down by the traffic starting off? What I am advocating is an indicator warning the pedestrian not to cross because the light is going to change.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, there are various remedies such as islands, a longer phase of the red light or the push button working more effectively. We are willing to examine any particular problem of which we are informed and we are experimenting, with the aid of the Road Research Laboratory, the whole time on this matter.
§ LORD DERWENTMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he would look at Oxford Street where the traffic filters left into Portman Street?—because the lights turn red one way and green the other. They change, and the traffic starts filtering left. Meanwhile, the pedestrian is still in the middle of the road. Is not the answer to this question that the timing of the lights themselves should be altered so that they are both at red for a few seconds longer?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, Oxford Street is a particularly bad area. You will never find a time in Oxford Street when there are not masses of pedestrians and masses of traffic.
§ THE EARL OF SHANNONMy Lords, in the Minister's answer to the first supplementary question he mentioned "turning traffic". Does that answer mean that Her Majesty's Government believe that when traffic is turning it does not have to give way to pedestrians who are already crossing that street? He implied that pedestrians had to wait for a gap in the traffic.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I did not say anything so categorical as that. I said that where there was only the occasional car turning off or the occasional pedestrian, what is wanted is common sense and a little give and take on either side.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Lord agree that what we need are more blinking lights?
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, if the noble Lord can do nothing else, can he establish the point in the Highway Code that traffic filtering left must give way to pedestrians? It is perfectly safe to cross American streets where they have the same kind of lights as we have because it is absolutely established that filtering traffic gives way. The danger in this country is that it does not.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I will have the noble Baroness's words looked at and will communicate with her.
§ LORD ORR-EWINGMy Lords, will the noble Lord consider that the filter green to the left should be a blinking light which indicates clearly that you can filter left only if there is no pedestrian in the way. This would highlight the need to be careful of pedestrians crossing when using filter lights.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, whether it he arrows or blinking lights is not the point. If there were a sufficiency of pedestrians to warrant it, the Department would recommend that we have a push-buttons and an all-pedestrian phase.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, would not the Minister agree that having push-buttons slows down traffic? What I am asking in the Question is simply that there should be a little green man or a little red man warning people when 655 it is safe to cross in the circumstances I mentioned in an earlier supplementary.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that is precisely what the little red man or he little green man does. This system stops traffic only when there are pedestrians waiting.
§ EARL HOWEMy Lords, has the noble Lord considered using the American illuminated sign which says "Walk" or "Do not walk", and which seems to control the wilder pedestrians?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think the principle is the same.