§ 2.42 p.m.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they propose to extend the operations of the Council of Industrial Design to cover the engineering and capital goods industries and to provide the Council with the additional financial support which this would require.]
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the Government have already announced that they consider that the Council can give a valuable lead in the improvement of the standards of engineering design in this country, and accordingly have asked that it should adjust its priorities and progressively give greater emphasis to this work. We accept that there is a continuing need for Government support to enable the Council to carry out its essential educational and promotional 565 work, and we have also encouraged the Council to increase, so far as possible, the revenue it earns from its own activities. On this basis, we consider that the Council will be able to develop its engineering design activities satisfactorily.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that a study carried out some time ago by consultants clearly indicated the fact that although the Government may will the end they are unprepared to supply the means?—as usual, I may say. Will the Government reconsider the question of giving additional financial support to the Council of Industrial Design to enable it to devote proper attention to this very important subject of engineering design, which it is hardly touching at the moment?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the Government have considered this matter and have decided that it is better for the present Council to look after the engineering design side, but an Engineering Design Advisory Committee has been established within the Council, as the noble Lord will know, under the chairmanship of Mr. G. B. R. Fielden, who made the original Report in 1963.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, my Question is directed at the resources provided for the C.O.I.D. by the Government, and I should be glad if the noble Lord would give a clear answer to the question whether, in order to enable it to expand its activities, the Government are prepared to increase the grant to the C.O.I.D. for this purpose. Or are the Government in fact asking the C.O.I.D. to do an immense amount of extra work out of resources which are only just adequate to do the work in regard to the consumer goods which it is at present doing?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the Government recognise that it will be necessary for the Council to switch some of its resources to the engineering side if this is to go on, but at the moment the current Vote of the Council is £580,000, and provision for a further supplementary grant will have to be laid before Parliament in due course to meet the cost of salary increases for the Council's staff. 566 But the noble Lord is right in thinking that the Government believe that the Council should work within roughly these limits.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, am I correct in assuming that the Government have refused to expand the grant to the C.O.I.D. to cover this additional engineering work?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the grant was slightly increased as compared with that for last year, but the answer to the noble Lord in broad terms is, Yes.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, does my noble friend recall how much the Council of Industrial Design has been able to help other industries, and will he bear in mind that, if it could be of equal help to the engineering industries, the aid for which the noble Lord, Lord Brown, pleads could prove a most excellent investment?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, in terms of help, I hope that the Council will be able to give equal help to the engineering industry, and that it will be able so to organise itself that it can do this within the financial limits that have been set. I also hope that it will expand its own revenue, as it has done very successfully.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, can the noble Lord explain to the House how the Council can do what he suggests ought to be done when clearly he and the Government are not prepared to provide the means to do it? Can the noble Lord explain how it is to be done?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, as I said, this will no doubt involve some switch in resources from the industrial design side to the engineering design side. As I also said, it is hoped that progressively the Council will be able to build up a strong engineering design side within the resources that are made available.
§ LORD BURNTWOODMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord would take that answer back to the appropriate Department and have another look at it. There is some concern about this matter. Is he aware that we spend many hundreds of millions of pounds in original research at our various research establishments, but that very frequently we cannot put these new inventions on to the market 567 because of the lack of industrial design? It is not a question of reducing expenditure on consumer goods: it is really a question of finding more money for industrial design. Unless we do something about this matter to enable us to compete with the better design of imports into this country, exports will be lost.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I quite understand the noble Lord's point of view, but I think that it would at this stage be better to leave it to the reconstituted Council to decide how to use its resources and how to pursue the objectives that the Government have set before it.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, I am sorry to press this matter, but may I ask whether the noble Lord is aware that such bodies as the Confederation of British Industry, and many others, are now deeply concerned about the fact that the level of sophistication of the engineering imports into this country is a great deal higher than that of our exports? Is he aware that this is regarded as a relative failure of design in this country, and that therefore this is an extremely urgent matter which was the subject of investigation by the previous Government for two years? This is not a matter which can be left to the Council to see whether it can switch funds. The C.O.I.D. must have more money if it is to pursue this matter with the necessary vigour.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords but one of the questions which the C.O.I.D. will have to decide is how it can get more resources. It may well be that it can get much more in the way of resources from industry on the engineering side than it did on the industrial design side.
§ LORD BRECONMy Lords, would my noble friend agree that the noble Lord, Lord Brown, had the opportunity to do this some time ago?
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, if manufacturers are going to get an advantage by exporting sophisticated goods, is there any reason why they should not subscribe substantially to the experimental and research work which is necessary?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the question in the first place is how far the services which will be rendered should be paid for, rather than a question of a "whip round" in industry to obtain funds. Having said that, I have a good deal of sympathy with what the noble Lord has said.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that as the Minister responsible at the Board of Trade, I was about to take action on this prior to the last General Election?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I take note of that. I am bound to say that what he has said seems to be borne out by what I have been told.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, why did not the noble Lord rise in his place to reply to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Brecon?
§ LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORDMy Lords, since there is so much general interest in this matter would it not be better to raise it on an Unstarred Question?