HL Deb 11 November 1971 vol 325 cc464-6

3.16 p.m.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, with regard to the £12 ¾ million reported as recently allotted to India for refugees, they will state the total indebtedness of India to the United Kingdom presently outstanding, and what proportion of such loans have been revised from their original terms.]

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, Britain has offered £14¾ million for the relief of refugees in the form of grants. The total outstanding indebtedness of India to the United Kingdom at March 31, 1971, including undisbursed amounts, was £424 million, of which £395 million relates to official aid loans and £29 million relates to guaranteed commercial credit. No revisions have been made to the original terms of any official aid loans. However, all the members of the Aid India Consortium have joined in giving debt relief to India, and the United Kingdom has made debt refinancing loans totalling £50 million over the past six years. The World Bank is now studying India's aid and debt position and expects to produce further proposals for action by the consortium.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, in view of that massive figure of the total indebtedness of India, and the global overall figure which the noble Earl gave to the House quite recently, will he make sure that consideration is given to the proposal that there be a moratorium on any further aid advances to India? Further, will he accept that this figure gives support to the often-represented view, that a bigger proportion of loan should be through private agencies, which would possibly effect better policing and would certainly be at less cost to the Exchequer?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, with regard to the matter of future loans, Her Majesty's Government are bound to wait upon the World Bank's recommendations. I think that India is unique, as has indeed been recognised by many countries in the world, and the fact that it has been in receipt of very large sums of loans is not merely a measure of its indebtedness, but is a measure of the investment that has been put into India in order to try to help it towards a degree of prosperity.

BARONESS GAITSKELL

My Lords, should we not be proud of our record on aid, of our record on loans, instead of carping? We are an affluent nation, far more affluent than countries like India. Should we not be proud and stand on that?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, the noble Baroness is perfectly right. Our record of help to India is very considerable; indeed, the United Kingdom is the second largest bilateral creditor.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, despite the size of our aid to India up to date, most of us feel that in the acuteness of India's present need we should extend ourselves to the very limit to give further aid now?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think the views which my noble friends have expressed are views which Her Majesty's Government hold as well. Of course we are deeply concerned with the plight and the concern of India, particularly at this moment, and it is not without significance that we have in fact made two substantial grants-in-aid to help this particular predicament in which she finds herself.

LORD BURNTWOOD

My Lords, is it not a fact that during the very great number of years when the British Raj ruled India, and thereby gave to India many benefits, this country nevertheless extracted from India immense wealth, and that therefore to some extent we are indebted to India and should give her as much help as possible?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, that is precisely what the Government are trying to do in the amount of aid they have given India over recent years.

LORD KENNET

My Lords, can the Government confirm a recent article in the Economistwhich stated that the debt-servicing charges repayable by India to the Soviet Union were somewhat in excess of the current aid passing from the Soviet Union to India; and, if so, will the Government congratulate themselves on the fact that we are not in that position?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I think I should have to have notice of the aid which the Soviet Union gives to India and of India's repayments before being able to answer that question. But certainly her total repayments are very considerable and in fact amount to somewhere in the region of 600 million dollars per year, which is 30 per cent. of India's total earnings.

LORD BOOTHBY

My Lords, does not the noble Earl consider that the ending of the British Raj in India was an equal disaster for India and for this country, and is there not a lesson to be learned from this?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I dare say that there are many lessons to be learned from that, but I rather feel that it is slightly wide of the original Question.

LORD LEATHER LAND

My Lords, does the noble Earl think that one of the lessons we have to learn, bearing in mind what is happening in Ulster, is that if we had remained in India we should need at least two million armed men to keep order in that country?

EARL FERRERS

My Lords, I do not know quite how the noble Lord does his mathematics, and I should certainly be delighted to learn; but I think his question is not really relevant.