§ 2.49 p.m.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will state the reduction in the number of children taking school meals following the increase in price to 12p.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND SCIENCE (LORD BELSTEAD)My Lords, local education authorities are currently carrying out a count to provide information about the total numbers taking the school meal following the new arrangements for charging and remission. Authorities have been asked to submit their returns to the Department by June 11.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask him whether the Government are also requesting L.E.A.s to supply them with figures for the increase in the number of free meals which are being made available to children? Also, are 1144 they satisfied at the present time that all the children entitled to free meals are getting them?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, we know the percentage which is paid for, and that which is free of charge. For instance, in September of last year—this, I think, is really the answer to the noble Lord's question—67.9 per cent. of the pupils present in maintained schools in England and Wales took the meal, 59.5 per cent. paid and 8.4 per cent. received it free of charge. In answer to the second part of the noble Lord's supplementary, 80 per cent. of children who are entitled to the free meal take it up.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that one of the greatest assets for the future of this country is its children, and that investment in man should be the prime factor before any materialistic outlook? Will he please see that, if possible. the present policy is reversed, because our children are some of the finest in the world as a result of the policies of both Governments over the years of supplying milk and meals to schools?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for reminding the House of the importance of this subject. It is for that very reason that the new remissions are more generous than they have ever been before, adding on 75 new pence to every part of the remission scale. That is why we are conducting our researches in two parts, one now and another one in the autumn, and why an overseeing eye will be kept on the whole matter by COMA—the Committee on the Medical Aspects of Food Policy —which has a special sub-committee dealing with this subject.
BARONESS SUM MERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether the Government realise that poor children, who are being deprived of meals and milk, must inevitably have their growth stunted and that that stunted condition is permanent? That is why so many parents are much smaller than the children of to-day. Will the noble Lord therefore take this matter very seriously?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I genuinely take it seriously, and, most particularly, because whatever the noble 1145 Baroness, with her profession and experience, says on a subject like this must certainly be taken to heart. But 1 think it would be right to remind the House that it is exceedingly difficult to get conclusive evidence on this subject. None the less, for the reasons which the noble Baroness has given, and in addition to the answer which I gave to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Leek, the Government are in August making the Family Incomes Supplement an automatic passport to a free school meal.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that those of us who live in working class areas know that there has been a huge reduction in the number of children taking dinners, because they are now taking sandwiches to school instead of getting a good meal? Is he further aware that the reduction in the number of children taking meals will be calamitous when the Tory Government bring in their next increase for these meals, for which the charges are being increased in two stages?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I would ask the noble Lord to be a little careful before he jumps to conclusions. When the noble Lord's Party raised the price of the meal in 1968—and also because it was the summer time—there was a reduction in the take up. By the following September that reduction had been made up.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the generally high standard of health in our schools has been accepted, and that a good deal of it has been attributed to the provision of school meals and free milk? Is it really necessary to reduce the standard and, statistically, to find out whether it is necessary to increase it again?
§ LORD BELSTEADI am sorry, my Lords, but I did not quite hear the noble Lord's question. The standard of the meal is not being reduced. The nutritional value remains precisely the same.
§ LORD PARGITERMy Lords, the nutritional value of something which people cannot afford to buy is not very good for them, is it?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, once again I would ask noble Lords to be a little careful before they jump to con- 1146 elusions. If the noble Lord would like evidence, I shall give him evidence. If there are two parents with four children, they can now earn 90 new pence—that is, 18s. net—per week more than they could have done before April, and still have full entitlement to free meals for all those four children. if there are two parents with four children, who have entitlement, they can now earn £1.35p. net—that is £1.7s. Od.—more than they could have earned before April, and still have entitlement to free meals for one child. We are really trying to do our best in the context of our policy, which is to reallocate resources, particularly towards the building of primary schools in some of the poorer areas of the country.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, when the noble Lord was so critical of my noble friends who brought to his attention the rise in the number of children taking sandwiches to school, had he before him the remarks of Sir William Alexander who also said:
There is growing concern among local authorities over the effects of a sudden growth in the number of children bringing sandwiches to school."?Will the noble Lord give us an assurance that in the inquiries which he is making the nutritional effects of the recent changes will be thoroughly studied?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I can certainly give the noble Lord that assurance.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, will my noble friend take steps to make sure that the Press and radio give the fullest possible publicity to his very satisfactory and encouraging reply.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, this has been a responsibility of the Department of Health and Social Security, who have conducted a widespread campaign through the mass media. I am most grateful to my noble friend for bringing this subject to our attention, because we feel that if this has not had the desired effect by the autumn it will be necessary to look at it once again.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, would it not be advisable for the Secretary of State for Education and Science to delegate, as it were, the No. 2 in command 1147 —that is, the noble Lord himself—to travel the country and go to every region, in order to get the reactions to the policy of this Government in regard to school meals?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I think that the last part of what the noble Lord said is very sound advice. If any members of Her Majesty's Government who are in the Department travel the countryside, it is their business to ask all concerned. This we shall most certainly be trying to do.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that from all over the country there are coming reports of record reductions—as high as 20 per cent., and frequently more—in the percentage of children taking meals? Also, is he aware that at Warley, in Worcestershire, 35 school meal helpers have been laid off as a result of the reduction in the number of children taking school meals?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I would ask the noble Lord to wait for the first stage of the survey to be completed in only a few weeks' time; and then, more importantly—and I referred, I hope courteously, to the experience under the previous Government—for the second stage of the survey, which is to come in the autumn. I think perhaps we have now covered the ground and gone a little wider than the original Question.
§ LORD ARWYNMy Lords, except for one—
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will allow me to intervene. I think we are in danger of turning this Question into a debate. I do not want to come between my noble friend and your Lordships, because I think my noble friend has acquitted himself pretty well and does not need me to intervene. But as there are some 28 speakers to follow in the two debates, I feel that it would be right to pass on now to the next Question.