HL Deb 26 May 1971 vol 319 cc1150-4

3.4 p.m.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF L1STOWEL)

My Lords, I beg to move that the Fifth Report from the Select Committee on Procedure of the House be now considered.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

The Committee's Report was as follows:

ORDERED TO REPORT: —

That the Committee have met and been attended by the Clerk of the Parliaments.

1. On 23rd July, 1970, the First Report from the House of Lords' Offices Committee was omitted by an oversight from the Order Paper and was taken, by leave of the House, without notice. In the course of the exchanges which followed on the Floor of the House, the Leader of the House undertook to refer the implications of this action to the Procedure Committee for consideration. The Committee have accordingly considered the concept of " Notice " and " Leave of the House ", and submit the following Report.

I. NOTICE

Standing Order 32

2. The Committee consider that Standing Order 32 needs amendment. At present it reads as follows: — No debate to take place on matters raised without notice. 32. Where is is intended to raise a discussion on a question, notice of the question should be given in the. Order Paper. If a statement be made, or a question asked, which does not appear on the Order Paper, but of which private notice has been given, such statement or question should not be made the occasion for immediate debate unless the House so order.

3. The drafting of this Standing Order presents difficulties of construction because:—

  1. (i) the first sentence refers to a question of unspecified nature;
  2. (ii) the second sentence is specifically confined to Statements and PNQs; and
  3. (iii) the side note suggests a wider application which is often taken to include Motions.

It is not clear, therefore, whether the Standing Order refers merely to Statements and PNQs or more widely to Starred and Un-starred Questions and Motions.

4. The Committee consider that Starred Questions are satisfactorily governed by Standing Order 33 and that there is, therefore, no need for them to be brought within the ambit of Standing Order 32.

On the other hand, the Committee feel that the Standing Orders relating to notice ought to cover specifically Unstarred Questions and Motions as well as Statements and Private Notice Questions. Accordingly, they recommend the following two Standing Orders in replacement of the existing Standing Order 32, to be inserted after Standing Order 33:℄

33A. PNQs and Statements. Questions of which private notice has been given may be asked, and statements made, without notice given in the Order Paper but these should not be made the occasion for immediate debate, unless the House so order.

33B. Unstarred Questions and Motions. Questions which may give rise to discussion (known as Unstarred Questions) and Motions of which notice is required, shall appear on the Order Paper of the day on which they are to be taken.

In connection with the proposed new Standing Order 33B, the Committee recommend that a note should be inserted in the Companion to make it clear that when notice is required, its appearance on the Order Paper of the day is a minimum requirement. The Committee consider that, wherever possible, such notice should appear not only on the White Order Paper used in the House, but also in the Notices and Orders of the Day which are circulated with the Minutes of Proceedings. Standing Order 37 ("Business of which notice is not necessary")

5. The Committee have considered whether clarification is needed of the types of business that can be taken without notice. They note that the business which the House in practice allows to be taken without notice includes the following:—

  1. (a) Royal Assent;
  2. (b) Obituary tributes and personal statements;
  3. (c) Ministerial Statements, PNQs;
  4. (d) Statements or Questions on business, procedure and privilege;
  5. (e) Oath of Allegiance;
  6. (f) Presentation of Public Petitions;
  7. (g) Manuscript Amendments to Bills and to Motions;
  8. (h) Consideration of Commons Amendments and Reasons;
  9. (i) Business expressly authorised under Standing Order 37, namely:—
    1. (i) Messages from the Crown (Standing Order 37(1));
    2. (ii) Messages from the Commons and First Reading of Commons Bills (Standing Order 37(2) and (3));
    3. (iii) Introduction of Lords Bills (Standing Order 37(3)).
  10. (j) Motions relating to the conduct of the business of the House, for example:—
    1. (i) Motions for the adjournment of a Debate, or of the House;
    2. (ii) In Committee of the Whole House, Motions to adjourn the debate on an Amendment, to adjourn the Committee, or to resume the House;
    3. (iii) The Motion "That leave be not given to ask a Question ";
    4. (iv) The Motion " That the Noble Lord be no longer heard ";
      5. 1152
    5. (v) The Closure;
    6. (vi) The previous Question.

6. These examples divide broadly into three categories:—

  1. (a) business which does not involve a decision of the House;
  2. (b) business which is expressly authorised under Standing Order 37 to be taken without notice;
  3. (c) Motions which are concerned with the conduct of the business of the House.

Of the items listed in paragraph 5 above, the only ones which do not fall into any of these categories are (g) Manuscript Amendments to Bills and Motions; and (h) Consideration of Commons Amendments and Reasons.

Manuscript Amendments are, by definition, business of which notice has not been given. Commons Amendments and Reasons are often taken on motion without notice (though it is usual to give notice by means of an italicized note and where possible the Amendment or Reason is printed pursuant to Standing Order 46) but are not amongst the items authorised by Standing Order 37 for that treatment. The Committee consider that Standing Order 37 should be amended to make provision for the consideration of Commons Amendments and Reasons without notice.

The Committee recommend—

  1. (i) That the list of items of business which can be taken without notice should he noted in the revised Companion, making it clear that such a list cannot be exhaustive;
  2. (ii) That Standing Order 37 he amended so as to recognise that Commons Amendments and Reasons may be taken on Motion without notice.

Standing Order 37(5)

7. The Committee further recommend that at the end of Standing Order 37(5) in place of the words (" immediately after Starred Questions ") there should be inserted the words

(" at any time by leave of the House.")

Standing Order 78 ("Standing Orders not to be made or dispensed with without notice")

8. The Committee have considered whether any amendment is desirable to Standing Order 78, which reads as follows: 78. No Motion shall be granted for making any new Standing Order, or for dispensing with a Standing Order of the House, unless Notice shall have been given in the Order Paper to consider the said Motion

The Committee are of the opinion that it is important to preserve the sanctity of this Standing Order which has existed for over 270 years for the express purpose of protecting its Members against snap decisions taken without notice. The House of Lords is a House of part-time Members who cannot be expected to attend every day and the minimum of one day's notice is an essential safeguard against the taking of Business of which they have no knowledge and to which they have no chance of objecting. If Leave of the House were accepted as a substitute for notice the purpose of Standing Order 78 would be defeated and the authority of all Standing Orders undermined. They therefore recommend that no amendment or qualification of Standing Order 78 should be made.

II. LEAVE OF THE HOUSE

9. The Committee recommend that Leave of the House, or of a Committee of the House, must be unanimous in those cases where, if Leave were granted. the House or Committee would be deprived of a Question which would otherwise have been put from the Woolsack or from the Chair; and that, in all other cases where Leave is sought, it is granted by a majority of the House and the objection of a single Peer does not suffice to withhold it.

10. The adoption of this principle would mean that Leave would be withheld if a single Lord objected in the following examples:—

  1. (i) Leave to withdraw an amendment or a Motion which is before the House;
  2. (ii) Leave to move Special Orders en bloc;
  3. (iii) Leave to move amendments or clauses en bloc;
  4. (iv) the motion that the Order of Commitment (or Re-Commitment) of a Bill be discharged;
  5. (v) Leave to withdraw a Bill.

Leave would be withheld by a majority decision of the House, in the following instances:—

  1. (a) Leave to ask Questions;
  2. (b) Leave to make Ministerial or personal Statements;
  3. (c) Leave to take business not on the Order Paper of which notice is not required;
  4. (d) Leave to speak more than once to one Motion (see paragraph 13 below).

The Committee recommend that the above examples should be included in the revised Companion.

11. The Committee recommend a new Standing Order to govern Leave of the House: — Leave of the House. 29A. Leave of the House or of a Committee of the House must be unanimous in those cases where. if Leave were granted, the House or Committee would be deprived of a Question which would otherwise have been put from the Woolsack or the Chair. In all other cases where Leave is sought, it is granted by a majority of the House and the objection of a single Peer does not suffice to withhold it ''.

Standing Order 29

12. When a debate arises on a subject which is the special province of one particular Minister and there is a requirement both for a statement of Government policy early in the debate and also for the Minister to wind up for the Government at the end, it is customary for the House, in these circumstances, to allow the Minister to speak twice. This is, however, a clear contravention of Standing Order 29, which says:— 29. No Lord is to speak twice to any motion, whether on a Bill or other matter (save only when the House is in Committee) except the Mover in reply, unless it be to explain himself in some material point of his speech (to new matter being introduced) and that not without the leave of the House first obtained.

13. The Committee are of the opinion that the custom of allowing a Minister to speak more than once with the Leave of the House in the circumstances described above should be continued and regularised and that a similar dispensation should be made for the Chairman of Committees (or his Deputy) and the Chairman of a Select Committee. Ministers have a special responsibility, since they owe a duty to the House to explain Government policy and to impart information. The Chairman of Committees, or of a Select Committee, may also need to speak more than once with the Leave of the House, e.g. in debate on a Private Bill, or on the Report of a Select Committee.

14. The Committee recommend that Standing Order 29 be redrafted as follows:—

" 29. No Lord is to speak more than once to any Motion, save only:—

  1. (a) when the House is in Committee;
  2. (b) the mover of a Motion in reply;
  3. (c) with the Leave of the House, which may only be granted:—
    1. (i) to a Lord to explain himself in some material point of his speech (no new matter being introduced) or
    2. (ii) to the Chairman of Committees, or in his absence a Deputy Chairman, the Chairman of a Select Committee on the Report of such a Committee, or a Minister of the Crown."

THE EARL OF L1STOWEL

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now agreed to.

Moved, That the Report be agreed to. —(The Earl of Listowel.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.