HL Deb 13 May 1971 vol 318 cc1189-93

3.7 p.m.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have given any consideration to the better use of Somerset House as a gallery or museum.]

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I sympathise with the suggestion, but Her Majesty's Government must have regard to the practical difficulties and very high cost of providing alternative accommodation in Central London for any of the Departments housed in the building.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, in view of the fact that it is the Government's avowed intention to reduce the number of civil servants, could they not begin by evacuating some of them from the better accommodation in Somerset House?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, without commenting upon the first part of that question, I am advised that there are certain parts of the Civil Service in Somerset House-the Principal Probate Registry, for instance-which for legal purposes must be near the law courts and Lincoln's Inn. The Inland Revenue have been there since 1785, and this building, by Sir William Chambers, was purpose-built for them.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, could the noble Lord tell us why he was so shy about answering the first part of the noble Lord's question? Is it that since the present Government have been in office the number of civil servants has leaped ahead so enormously?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

I was not shy about that; it was not germane to the question.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, would not the Government consider at least moving the Census Department to a locality in the suburbs of London? Secondly, will they consider the fact that Somerset House would be a very appropriate place to house the collection of British art now at the Tate Gallery? Will they remember that this suggestion probably has the approval of at least the curator of the Tate Gallery and, by and large, would put this lovely and gracious building to a more worthy use?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that I have every sympathy, as I think my right honourable friends have, towards the feeling behind his suggestion. The place where the Registrar General has his offices is a very beautiful part, and we know there are lovely inner rooms. They would be very suitable for the purposes to which the noble Lord referred. Our main trouble is that if we moved the 2,000 civil servants who work there, we should have to find something like £10½million to rehouse them.

LORD BURNTWOOD

My Lords, may I ask whether a recommendation on this subject has been received from the Museums Commission, upon which several of your Lordships sit, since there are organisations which are most inconvenient for the public to use (such as the British Museum's collection of old newspapers at Colindale) that are frequented by students, which might be considered for occupancy of a small part of Somerset House?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I believe this really is a matter for the Department of Education and Science, and they do not have the funds at the moment. If they were offered the accommodation, in addition to their normal programme of capital investment they would willingly take it, and could easily use it for purposes such as the noble Lord has indicated.

LORD MOYNE

My Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the 2,000 civil servants, and the many members of the public who visit these buildings also deserve to benefit by beautiful surroundings

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I would certainly subscribe to the view that civil servants have as much right to have as much beauty in their lives as anybody else.

VISCOUNT NORWICH

My Lords, did I understand the noble Lord to say that Somerset House was built specifically by Sir William Chambers for the Inland Revenue?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I am advised that Somerset House was one of the first purpose-built Government offices, being erected from 1776 onwards, following the passing of an Act of Parliament for the purpose of erecting Government offices.

VISCOUNT NORWICH

My Lords, will the noble Lord think again?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I can go on thinking until the cows come home, but that is still my view.

LORD BERNSTEIN

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether that figure of£10 ½million is a correct figure? I should like to know whether anybody has evaluated the benefits that would come from spending that money as against using Somerset House as a museum or a gallery. If so, could we have a Paper on it?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I will advise my right honourable friend and let the noble Lord know about that.

LORD RAGLAN

My Lords, following on that question, would the Government consider at the same time the position of the Royal Gallery here, and Westminster Hall, as places which are perhaps two of the most beautiful places of assembly in London, for more frequent use as places of public assembly perhaps for concerts, pageants, oratorios and so on?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, my right honourable friend is always interested in ideas such as that, and I will certainly see that it is passed on to him.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, did I understand correctly that it would cost £10½million to rehouse the civil servants who are working at Somerset House? What consideration have the Government given to moving this particular establishment of civil servants to a development area where it would not cost the Government a penny? The local authorities would be responsible for finding housing accommodation for these people.

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, the advice was that £10 ½ million would be the cost of a new building for the civil servants and their offices South of the Thames. It is important to realise that, although many noble Lords would like to see civil servants distributed all over the country, London is the seat of central Government and certain parts of the Civil Service must be near the seat of Government.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the Census officials are on record as telling one of our newspapers that they would welcome a move to better accommodation elsewhere?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

Yes, my Lords; I have heard that. In point of fact, the Census occupies only some 26,000 square feet out of a total of over 203,000 square feet occupied as clerical space.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, would my noble friend ensure that the public have access to some of these very fine rooms in Somerset House at an appropriate time, if we cannot in fact evacuate the civil servants from it?

LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON

My Lords, I will bring that point to the attention of my right honourable friend. I do not know offhand how practical that would be. The public already have access to certain parts.

LORD BERNSTEIN

My Lords, I think it would be unfair to continue this questioning, but am I to take the noble Lord's answer and comment about the seat of Government to imply that the Government are not going to try to disperse civil servants and other organisations up and down the country? After all, York has a place in the new life—indeed, it had a place in the old life. It would be tragic if the Government's decision now is to concentrate on London.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)

My Lords, since this matter comes very much within my departmental province, perhaps my noble friend would allow me to reply to the noble Lord, Lord Bernstein. I can inform him that we are at present engaged on a comprehensive and far-reaching exercise into seeing what further possibilities of dispersal there are, and this is fairly far forward. The point he made is very much in mind. But, having said that, I think it does give me an opportunity to say that I think we have made sufficient meal of Somerset House for the time being.

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