HL Deb 13 May 1971 vol 318 cc1519-22

8.36 a.m.

VISCOUNT GOSCHEN

My Lords, I think there was some confusion over the Closure Motion moved yesterday evening by the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, during the Committee stage of the Industrial Relations Bill (col, 1305 of the OFFICIAL REPORT). This was due to the fact that I did not make it clear to the Clerks that I and my noble friend Lord Denham had been appointed Tellers for the Not

ployers—he is likely to find himself, as the noble Lord said, in risk of being in contempt of the Industrial Court. To unravel this will take many steps, but I am bound to say that I do not think that my noble friends and I can accept this Amendment without dividing the Committee.

8.29 a.m.

On Question, Whether the said Amendment (No. 237) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 54; Not-Contents, 19.

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L. Goschen, V. Nugent of Guildford, L.
Amherst of Hackney, L. Gowrie, E. Pender, L.
Balfour, E. Gray, L. Penrhyn, L.
Bathurst, E. Hailes, L. Rankeillour, L.
Belstead, L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. [L. Chancellor] Reading, M.
Brabazon of Tara, L. St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]
Carrington, L. Hanworth, V. St. Oswald, L.
Clinton, L. Harvey of Tasburgh, L. Sandford, L.
Cork and Orrery, E. Hives, L. Sandys, L.
Cranbrook, E. Hood, V. Sempill, Ly.
Croft, L. Ilford, L. Strange, L.
Denham, L. [Teller.] Jellicoe, E. [L. Privy Seal.] Suffield, L.
Drumalbyn, L. Kemsley, V. Swansea, L.
Dudley, E. Lansdowne, M. Teviot, L.
Effingham, E. Lothian, M. Thorneycroft, L.
Elliot of Harwood, Bs. Lyell, L. Tweedsmuir, L.
Ferrers, E. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Vivian, L.
Fisher, L. Moyne, L. Windlesham, L.
Glendevon, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Bacon, Bs. Greenwood of Rossendale, L. Popplewell, L.
Beswick, L. Hoy, L. Shackleton, L.
Blyton, L. Kennet, L. Slater, L.
Davies of Leek, L. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, Bs. [Teller.] Stow Hill, L.
Delacourt-Smith, L. Taylor of Mansfield, L.
Diamond, L. Milner of Leeds, L. Wells-Pestell, L.
Garnsworthy, L. Phillips, B. [Teller.]

Contents. Owing to this error on my part, the noble Lord in the Chair was informed that no Tellers had been appointed for the Not-Contents. He reported the fact to the Committee and declared that the Contents had it. This was contrary to what was intended by Her Majesty's Government and also, I think, contrary to what was understood by the Committee as a whole. My Lords, I much regret my mistake.*

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, I take it that that is not by way of being a personal statement, but a statement explaining Business, and I can therefore comment. I am quite certain that the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, is taking far too much blame on himself. No blame really attaches to anyone. One of the consequences of having a sensible and liberal form of procedure is that occasionally, because it depends on discretion, it may slip in unusual circumstances—and I would rather have the occasional slip. We on this side of the House were under the impression—and certainly my noble friend Lord Hoy was—that the Closure Motion had been lost, whereas, in a way, it had been carried; and he went on and gracefully withdrew an Amendment which had already been "closured".

It reminds me of the time when I found my noble friend Lord Longford carrying on a debate which had already been passed. So there is a precedent for this. I am quite sure that no blame attaches either to the Clerks or to the Chairman, or indeed to the noble Viscount, Lord Goschen, himself. But it is important that this should go on the Record, especially since the closure was carried improperly—perhaps one could describe it as a "mis-closure". I think the Procedure Committee ought to take note of this, so that it is recorded that this was not intended to be a Closure Motion. I think also that the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, who has been sitting here all night as a penance for his action, would, given a little more time, probably not have wished to proceed with it, since my noble friend gave way to him on withdrawing the Amendment only under the impression that he wanted to make a contribution. However, we are grateful to the noble Viscount for setting the Record straight.

EARL JELLICOE

My Lords, I think it would be a good thing if we did ask the Procedure Committee to take note of this, and I should like to thank the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition for his graceful words.

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Hear. Hear!

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, the noble Earl has twice managed to remember to thank the staff for their work during this long night, and I echo his remarks. That is another reason why I think it is a good thing that we are now going home.