HL Deb 03 May 1971 vol 318 cc1-4
LORD PLATT

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether there are any cigarette vending machines exclusively available to children as suggested by the Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (H.C. Deb. 23rd April, col. 1589); and what stands in the way of banning all cigarette vending machines which are available to children and young persons.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (LORD ABERDARE)

My Lords, Section 7(2) of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 empowers a magistrates' court to order the removal of a cigarette machine if the court is satisfied that the machine is being extensively used by persons under the age of 16. Enforcement does, however, present considerable difficulties. The question of vending machines is one of the matters which the Government will consider following the inter-departmental discussions on all the implications of the Report of the Royal College of Physicians.

LORD PLATT

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply to my Question. In view of certain matters which have been published since I tabled the Question, may I ask why the question of vending machines was not included in the secret discussions that went on with the tobacco manufacturers? Further, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government are satisfied that secret discussions of this kind, without reference to Parliament, published eight weeks later and ending with practically an assurance that the Government will not trouble the manufacturers again until the end of 1972, are a satisfactory way of campaigning against cancer?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, on the first point, the manufacturers are not the appropriate people with whom to discuss the question of vending machines. The vending machines are owned by various other people, who sell the cigarettes from them. On the second point, the Government firmly believe that to proceed as they are proposing to proceed, by means of voluntary agreement with the manufacturers, is a quicker and more effective way of achieving what we all want than legislation at this stage.

LORD REIGATE

My Lords, can my noble friend say how much action has taken place under the Act of Parliament to which he referred? Can he also say why, in view of the very large number of retail outlets which exist for the sale of cigarettes, there is any reason at all for cigarettes to be sold from vending machines?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, on the first point, I am afraid that the figures of proceedings are not available, although I suspect that they are pretty low, owing to the difficulty of enforcing this particular provision. On the second point, the whole question is being discussed and we are awaiting the outcome of the interdepartmental discussions.

BARONESS SEROTA

My Lords, can the noble Lord give us any indication as to when we can expect the outcome? He will recall that at the end of our recent debate on smoking and health he himself gave an undertaking that this specific question would be considered.

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I cannot give an answer as to when the result will be available, but I can say, as the noble Baroness will know if she has been following the debate on the Health Hazards Bill in another place, that my right honourable friend has paid great heed to what was said in this House about vending machines.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

My Lords, in view of the fact that the first Report on this subject from the Royal College of Physicians—a Report which was made by a Committee of which the noble Lord, Lord Platt, was chairman—was made some years ago, and that a second, most authoritative Report, with Lord Rosenheim as the chairman of the Committee, has recently been made, can the Government explain why they are dragging their feet and not taking immediate action in order to prevent children acquiring this pernicious habit?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I do not think that the Government are dragging their feet. I think they took action extremely quickly after the last Report, in announcing a voluntary agreement with the manufacturers. So far as the question of vending machines is concerned, this is a matter which requires legislation and we cannot go rushing bullheaded into it.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

But is it rushing, my Lords? Has the noble Lord read the first Report, which was made years ago? Can it be regarded as rushing in view of the fact that he has had two Reports covering the last six or seven years?

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

It is a Tory rush!

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, we discussed this when we had the debate, and I believe that we are going ahead as quickly as we can on the last Report.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, in view of the noble Lord's statement that the voluntary method of procedure in these negotiations is quicker and more efficient than other methods of procedure, will he advise his right honourable friend to apply that to the Industrial Relations Bill?

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the legislation which was intended to keep cigarettes out of the hands of children is the worst enforced and least enforceable legislation on our Statute Book, and will he please understand that it cannot be left there and must either go backwards or a great deal forwards?

LORD ABERDARE

My Lords, I think that is what I said in my original Answer.