§ 4.10 p.m.
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement that my right honourable friend the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications is making in another place. It is as follows:
"With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a Statement. I am presenting to-day a White Paper announcing the Government's proposals for establishing an alternative service of sound broadcasting. The Government propose a service of local radio to be transmitted on very high frequencies and on medium frequencies, and to be financed from the sale of advertising time. Up to 60 stations attaining coverage of about 65 per cent. of the population on V.H.F. can ultimately be provided. On medium frequencies the daytime coverage will reach about 70 per cent.: by night it will be about 25 per cent.
"The service will be entrusted to the Independent Television Authority, which will become the Independent Broadcasting Authority. The I.B.A.'s rights and duties in relation to its radio 1099 service will be similar to those of the present I.T.A. in relation to television. Rolling three-year contracts, renewable each year, are however proposed for the radio programme companies—a system that will combine strong powers of control for the Authority with prospects of greater security of tenure for the programme companies than can be obtained with fixed-term contracts.
"The Government's intention is that the stations should combine popular programming with a good service of local news and information. Another major objective of the new service will be to provide an alternative source of national and international news on radio. The White Paper identifies three ways in which this might be provided and will, I hope, promote discussion about the best means of securing a good central news service. Following detailed consultations with newspaper interests, the White Paper contains proposals which will entitle the press to participate in the companies awarded contracts.
"The White Paper also announces the Government's conclusion that the B.B.C.'s 20 station service of local radio should continue, and that in due course it should be transmitted not only on V.H.F.—as at present—but also on M.F. Thus it has proved possible to plan the new service alongside the existing services of the B.B.C., and I should like to thank the Corporation and its engineers for the assistance we have received from them in overcoming the frequency problems involved.
"The Government believe that competition will be as welcome in radio as it has been in television, and that our proposals will afford a significant extension of choice for the listener."
That is the end of the Statement.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for repeating that Statement. The country has waited a very long time for the Government to produce this scheme. We on this side of the House are rather relieved at the small size of the mouse which the noble Lord has produced. We are thankful that the B.B.C. should at last have security of tenure for its twenty local 1100 radio stations, and that it should be getting the medium wave for which it has long asked.
There are one or two questions which it is very important that we should ask the noble Lord. The first relates to control of programme content. How will the Independent Broadcasting Authority control the programmes and—this is not mentioned at all—the engagement of local staff? Secondly, we notice that this service is to be paid for out of advertising money. Does the noble Lord consider that the scheme will create extra advertising money, or will it be redistribution of existing money? What effect does he consider that that will have on the ailing newspaper world and, in particular, on local newspapers? Thirdly—and this is the key question—has the noble Lord's right honourable friend made any agreement with the Musicians' Union and the copyright authorities about needle time? Without that he will obviously be pursuing a will-o'-the-wisp, but there is no mention of any such agreement in the Statement. Have the Government produced a viable scheme instead of one of their more grandiose ones, or have they produced a hotch-potch of compromise?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, I am grateful for the fact that the noble Baroness is not completely opposed to what she calls, in rather deflating terms, a mouse of a scheme. She asked me three questions: first, how will the control of local programme content be organised? This will be a matter for the I.B.A. to work out. Secondly, she asked me whether the advertising money would detract from the interests of local newspapers. When the noble Baroness reads the White Paper, she will see that local newspapers have certain rights that are laid down therein. For instance, any local newspaper with a significant circulation in an area which is covered by local radio will have the right to acquire an interest in that local radio service. Thirdly, the noble Baroness asked about needle time. This will be a matter for the local radio interests to take up with the various recording interests.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has been misled by the charm of my noble friend into thinking that this quite deplorable 1101 proposal is acceptable on this side of the House? Is he aware that, although it was an Election promise, many of us regard this as another sell-out for no good reason at all? Will he now tell us how the competition will be achieved? Is the B.B.C. to have similar stations? Is he aware that this cry of "competition" has always been misleading? What steps is he going to take to ensure that some of the profits from this service go into the Exchequer? This is in the public domain.
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, I was not misled by the opening speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies, in spite of the charm with which she made it, into thinking that she was particularly welcoming this proposal. She expressed a few utterances of relief that it was not less compatible to her beliefs than she thought it might have been. The noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition said that this was a sell-out. I cannot accept that. It is going to be—
§ LORD SHACKLETONA give away.
§ LORD DENHAMNo. The noble Lord has not yet had the advantage of reading the White Paper, and when he does he will see that all these points are taken care of very thoroughly. He may not be satisfied, but the points are gone into. I am not quite sure to what extent it is proper for me to quote from the White Paper, which will be available in the Printed Paper Office at any moment now. The noble Lord asked how competition was to be achieved. If I understood him correctly what he meant was: how were the 60 commercial stations going to be looked upon as competition for the 20 B.B.C. stations? Was that his point?
§ LORD SHACKLETONOne point.
§ LORD DENHAMThe noble Lord is not forgetting that the B.B.C. has its four main national programmes, and these certainly will provide competition.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that his noble friend Lord Belstead made a Statement in which clearly one section of the community is going to lose, and that the noble Lord himself has now made a Statement in which another section of the community is going to make a profit 1102 from a monopoly within their particular area?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, I would stress that the community as a whole is going to gain from these proposals.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, I refer to the noble Lord's reply to the question from my noble friend concerning needle time. I understood the noble Lord to say that this will have to be left to the particular stations that are set up to decide by means of negotiation. This is erroneous in the first place. The Government will find that these stations will be in great difficulty so far as this particular hurdle is concerned. In regard to the 60 stations that have been set up and the 20 that were set up under the B.B.C., what consideration had the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications given to the expanding or extending of local radio stations before the commercial lobby got at him in the other place in regard to the setting up of these commercial radio stations?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, with regard to needle time, the independent radio interests will negotiate needle time in exactly the same way as the B.B.C. has negotiated it. One cannot expect an organisation to do this before it is set up. As to the expression the noble Lord, Lord Slater, used of my right honourable friend being "got at" by commercial interests, my reply is that my right honourable friend was not "got at" by commercial interests. He believes that this step is right for radio in the country as a whole, and that the B.B.C. is at the moment able to run 20 stations. Furthermore, he believes that it would not be possible for the B.B.C. to run more than 20 local stations without putting up the licence fee. Moreover, apart from competition, in which he firmly believes as do the whole of my Party, he strongly holds the view that the extra stations can be provided without putting up the licence fee and can provide a very good service for the community.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, regarding the Overseas Service of the B.B.C., may I ask my noble friend whether there will be no loss of broadcasting wavelengths in the medium and 1103 short wavebands? I am thinking particularly of the French language service of the B.B.C. I understand there is considerable disquiet within the B.B.C. because they may be losing some wavebands, particularly on the 371 metres wavelength. They do useful work in broadcasting to Europe and to Africa.
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, there will be some readjustment of wavelengths, but my understanding is that there will be no loss to overseas broadcasting.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, could the noble Lord be a little clearer about needle time? Since it is known that the Musicians' Union and other bodies are hostile to giving more needle time would it not have been better to start with that question, and find out if the whole thing could then proceed afterwards?
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, local radio is going to be formulated to suit particular local interests. The recording interests on both sides will need to know a little more about what local radio is about before they can reach any agreement about percentage of time. Negotiation on percentage of needle time has been going on with the B.B.C. They have a certain percentage, and the same thing can be worked out for local radio; but it can be done very much better when the local radio organisation is set up and more is known about it.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, could not a system be evolved by means of which vital and important Statements such as this would not interrupt an important debate? Can we find a formula to deal with this? I am sure we can if we try.
§ LORD DENHAMMy Lords, a possible formula for this was suggested by my noble friend the Chief Whip, but it did not go down very well with the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition.
§ LORD CONESFORDMy Lords, is it not a perverse use of language to describe the ending of the B.B.C. monopoly in the spoken word as the creation of a monopoly?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I do not want to prolong this discussion, but it was the Government who chose to 1104 make the Statement; not the Opposition. I think that the noble Earl the Leader of the House also is conscious of the length of the debate. I would only say that I think he has this problem in mind, as I have. He might like to reassure my noble friend Lord Davies of Leek that this is a perpetual problem and we have not found an answer to it yet.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, this matter is indeed a hardy perennial, but I should be very surprised if it is not under consideration by the small group of noble Lords who, at my request, are looking into the workings of your Lordships' House.