§ 2.40 p.m.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what they intend to do about lead in petrol.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as I told the noble Lord on March 10, Her Majesty's Government are considering whether any action is needed to reduce the lead content of petrol.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, in view of what we have all just witnessed with such pleasure, will the House forgive me if I quote from Shakespeare, King Lear, Act 1, Scene 1:
Nothing will come of nothing: speak again"?As the noble Lord is not able to speak again, may I ask him a question so that he can? Does he accept that catalysts in after-burners are poisoned by lead? And even if he is not able to accept that, will he publish the evidence on which he based his earlier and rather complacent Answer?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the answer is that the catalysts used in America for the after-burner of the hydrocarbon and nitrogen oxides are 902 poisoned by lead; this is correct. May I ask the noble Lord to repeat his second question?
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, will the noble Lord publish the evidence on which he based his views?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the evidence on which I based my information to the noble Lord was worked out by the Medical Research Council, as I informed him. I can absolutely vouch for its accuracy. Whether it will be published is up to the M.R.C.
§ LORD O'HAGANMy Lords, is the noble Lord therefore saying that what is poisonous in America is not poisonous here?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONNo, my Lords. What I said is that the catalyst is destroyed by any presence of lead in petrol. In America, particularly in the Los Angeles Basin, exhaust gases form a particular photochemical smog. This is due to the physical effects in that part of the world. These do not appear in Europe. Neither Great Britain nor our European neighbours have found this to be the same problem as it has been found in the States.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I think the House is nearly as confused as he is by his answer? I wonder whether he would now take advice from the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, and choose an opportunity to speak again on a later occasion, because I do not think we are clear what evidence it is he is talking about.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, we must realise immediately that this pollution of the atmosphere is a very complicated question indeed. Lead is one of the pollutants of exhaust. We get lead in all parts of the world. In fact, the World Health Organisation found in 1966 that natives in New Guinea had a higher content of lead in their blood than citizens had in industrial cities in Europe. The evidence so far is perfectly clear, as one will see by looking at my Answer on March 10. We are totally clear. We are going to do something about this problem, but must use our resources in the right direction.
§ LORD AMULREEMy Lords, surely the issue is whether the amount of lead in petrol which comes out of the exhaust fumes of motor cars, and is therefore breathed in by people in the streets, is likely to be deleterious to health as a result of poison by lead.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, we accept that lead in itself is not a good thing to have; we are not going to give ourselves more. What we must also realise, though, is that even the natives in New Guinea have an enormous intake of lead. The amount of extra lead we get from pollution by exhaust gases is comparatively very small. I accept that we should be better without it, but if we do without it we have to use a lower octane petrol; we therefore have to have lower compression engines. These factors bring other problems in their wake. It is a matter of economics and sense.
§ LORD LUCAS OF CHILWORTHMy Lords, is the Minister aware that modern refinery processes are lessening the required amount of lead additives in petrol to meet the burning qualities required for the octane rating?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for the Environment is very well aware of this. He is having consultations with industry and the oil companies. At the end of the day I hope that we, and our European neighbours as well—we are represented on the Economic Commission for Europe—will be able to make a substantial contribution towards the reduction of pollution.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the advice being given to Her Majesty's Government on this issue seems completely unsatisfactory to people who are aware of the scientific facts? Has the noble Lord seen the article that was written in Chemistry and Industry in February of this year by Professor Bryce-Smith? If the noble Lord 904 has seen that, does he think that the reply he has given today, or the reply he gave a fortnight ago, bears any relation at all to the critical nature of this matter?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONYes, my Lords; I have seen Professor Bryce-Smith's article and have read it. All these articles are perfectly well intended. It is not absolutely accepted by all scientists that these facts are correct in all parts of the globe. Everything I have said I stand by. Large problems are involved here and it is no good being dogmatic. We accept that lead is not a sweet thing to be given to people unnecessarily, but we all have it in us; we have always had it; and this is a fact we must live with. We must help reduce it, if possible.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, is not the answer platinum points in the exhaust?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the answer is so many things. We probably get more lead in the atmosphere from the coal burnt in our grates and our factories than we do from lead exhaust in petrol; but there may be some need to reduce the lot.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has made a very serious statement? I understand that there are cannibals in New Guinea. Is he aware that there is already concern about the edibility of Western people because of the amount of D.D.T. in them? How do D.D.T. and lead mix? Is this not a matter for the Food and Agriculture Office?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I can assure the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition that we are not importing any cannibal meat from New Guinea.