§ 3.33 p.m.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total cost of aid and subvention of all kinds to Zambia since November, 1965, including the R.A.F. air lift and supplementary subventions of that kind.]
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, about £58 million; of which £8 million for development and £814,000 of a £2 million defence aid grant promised in 1965 have not been utilised by the Zambians.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in view of the impressive munificence of the taxpayer in those amounts, will the Minister agree that there is scope for channelling a greater proportion of aid through civilian agencies, rather than from Government to Government? As an illustration of recent experience, Zambia, plagued by a drought, had to import mealies, and did so from overseas—from the Argentine or China. Owing to shortage of transport, these mealies were left rotting at Beira, when they could have been brought quite easily across the border from Rhodesia.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I am perfectly aware that some things have been brought into Zambia which might have been purchased more easily elsewhere, but that is a matter for the Zambian Government.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether it is not the case that Zambia has contributed more in aid and subventions to this country, by loyally supporting our policy of sanctions against Rhodesia, from which it has suffered more than any other people?
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, is the Minister aware that Zambia is continuing—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
§ LORD BARNBY—and continues to trade on a large scale—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, I thought it would ease the position for the Minister—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Order!
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I think the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, is that Zambia has abided by the resolution of the United Nations' Security Council, as indeed have most other member nations of the Security Council.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, is it not a fact that, since the imposition of sanctions, trade between Zambia and Rhodesia has actually increased?
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, will the Minister agree that, in view of the good government and sound administration of Zambia, we should be proud of the aid we have given them and of the use to which it has been put?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness. I would only add that a very large part of this substantial sum of aid has been given because of I.D.I.; it was described as "contingency support" and in fact amounts to £24 million.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in defence of the taxpayers' munificence, will the Minister look into the question of whether some assistance can be given to the transport of fertilisers which are rotting in Beira and are needed for the assistance of the next crop in Zambia? Also, will he examine whether, as was stated, trade between Zambia and Rhodesia has actually increased?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, while I appreciate my noble friend's concern, I think it is a matter for the Zambian Government.
§ LORD MILVERTONMy Lords, with reference to the original Question, can the Minister give any figures as to the relative amounts spent on African education by Zambia and Rhodesia? Incidentally, the latter country has never received any subvention for that purpose.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, with the greatest of respect to my noble friend, that forms the basis of another Question and I could not very well answer it under this Question.