CIVIL SERVICE MANPOWER (Hansard, 18 March 1971)

§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)
My Lords, the Government have announced substantial reductions in public expenditure in the White Paper, New Poliices for Public Spending. The non-industrial manpower increase of about 4,400 in the period July 1, 1970, to February 1, 1971, has to be set in context. It represented the minimum extra manpower for the work to be done, much of it a legacy from the previous Administration. In the same period there was a reduction of about 3,100 industrial staff.

§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARD
My Lords, I thank my noble Leader for that reply. May I ask him to bear in mind that the majority of the electorate, while appreciating the difficulties, expect the Government to bear in mind the growth of the bureaucracy and to keep it to a minimum—consistent with the efficient running of the country?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I will certainly bear in mind what my noble friend has said; in fact, I already have it very much in mind.

§ LORD BLYTON
My Lords, will not the noble Earl put the Whips on his noble friend for putting such an embarrassing Question to him? Is this not a further exposure of the false prospectus issued for the last Election when the Party opposite said they would reduce prices at a stroke?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, we live in a free democracy, and my noble friend is as free as anybody else to ask what questions he wishes of me. I want to underline that it remains our objective to reduce the size of the Civil Service, which is what was said in the Election Manifesto. I would remind the noble Lord, Lord Blvton—perhaps it is not for me to say this—that when you are slimming, there are two ways of doing it: you can go on a crash diet, which is probably not the most sensible way of doing it; or you can adopt more rational policies of self-discipline. These take a little more time to work through.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, the noble Earl was clearly embarrassed when giving that Answer—his voice was very quiet and his words were very rapid—but could he indicate where this increase in civil servants has occurred? Which are the Departments? Perhaps he could give an indication how important they are to the national economic development?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, the noble Lord must have got a false impression if he thought that I was embarrassed. I sometimes read fast and sometimes slowly. I think it would be easier if the noble Lord put down a Question. I could easily let him have the information about the Departments where the increase has arisen, but it might be better to do so by Written Answer, rather than that I should read out a long list now, which I could do. That might be better from the point of view of your Lordships' House.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, can the noble Earl indicate which is the Department where the big increases have taken place?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, the Department in which the biggest increase has taken place is the Inland Revenue.

§ LORD POPPLEWELL
My Lords, in view of the inference that there will be 557 a long period before there can be a reduction, will the noble Earl indicate at what date he expects there will be a reduction in the Civil Service? Or does he agree with what was said by his former leader, Sir Winston Churchill, during the passage of the Iron and Steel measure? Sir Winston said, quite distinctly, in the other place that an Election Manifesto did not necessarily pledge a Party which is elected to govern.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I should like to repeat the words of the Leader of my Party, which he has used on more than one occasion: the commitments in our Election Manifesto, which we intend to discharge, are commitments for the life of a Parliament.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that despite these increases in the Civil Service we have today an increase in the figure of unemployed to over 750,000, which is a much more vital matter? Will the noble Earl say when the Government's plans for reducing unemployment in the country are likely to mature?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, although it is a very serious matter about which he has questioned me, I am afraid I must remind the noble Lord that it is, in fact, rather a different matter.

§ VISCOUNT HANWORTH
My Lords, would the noble Earl agree that there is considerable scope for making economies in Civil Service manpower by looking at legislation as a whole, and in particular taxation, rather than by making increases to meet each new requirement produced by further legislation?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I would entirely agree that in the long term there are certainly economies to be won by the simplification of our taxation system. In reply to that supplementary question I would also underline that Her Majesty's Government are engaged at present on a systematic review of all the functions of Government; and it is through that process, which is bound to take time, that the longer-term economies will be won.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, when the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, referred to legacies from the previous Administration which in his opinion are of an adverse 558 character, did he include the £600 million surplus in the balance of payments?

§ LORD LEATHERLAND
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that every evening in the London evening newspapers the Department of the Environment are advertising for typists, and that two or three times a week the Civil Service Commission are advertising for what are called "Whitehall psychologists"? And has this any relation to the mixed-up condition of Her Majesty's Ministers?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I did not quite catch the last part of the noble Lord's witticism. However, I am aware that there is an acute shortage of typists in Whitehall, as elsewhere: it is a national shortage.

§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEK
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that some of us would like to pay tribute to the often beaten Civil Service? May I inform him that personally I am delighted—

§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEK
May I ask him whether he is aware that some of us, as a result of the extension of the Civil Service in the income tax department, have received delightful little cheques covering rebates for errors previously made by that overworked department? Having at this moment just received a cheque for £43, I support the slight increase in the Civil Service.

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for reminding us of these pleasanter elements of the situation. Since I have a direct responsibility in this field, I should also like to echo the tribute that he has paid to civil servants and to the Civil Service.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I am sorry if my question to the noble Earl, Lord Jellicoe, appeared to prove embarrassing. It was not my intention to embarrass the noble Earl; I merely sought to evoke information. Is there any reason why he cannot reply to my question about a legacy which was not adverse in character from the previous Administration; namely, the £600 million surplus on the balance of payments? Is that not worth a reply?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, it was not the possible embarrassment of the 559 noble Lord's supplementary question that induced me to refrain from replying; it was the total irrelevance of his particular question.

§ LORD SLATER
My Lords, the noble Earl, in replying to previous supplementary questions, said that the Government were keeping to their Election Manifesto. Can he say what has happened to the employees of the Land Commission, in view of the policy which appeared in the Government's Manifesto that they were going to close down the Land Commission?

EARL JELLICOE
My Lords, again I should like notice of that question. The position is a little complicated, and I do not think it is susceptible to the short question and answer, let alone on a supplementary question.