§ 2.57 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent they envisage business travellers being inconvenienced by standard fare travellers not finding seats available at short notice due to advance block allocation of seats to tour operators on scheduled day-time flights to Europe in 1971.]
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government do not envisage any significant inconvenience to business travellers on this account. The number of seats that may be allocated to tour organisers on any flight to which the new arrangements will apply will be so limited as to ensure that other passengers can obtain seats at short notice to much the same extent as in the past. The new arrangements are also designed to ensure that scheduled services to some destinations do not have to be cut back or with drawn altogether, as they might have to be if these arrangements were not introduced.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, as the B.E.A. "Drive-About" holidays are now in operation, and as the Spain-Portugal ones are to come into operation on April 1, even if we do not consider the T.O.P. fares coming into operation in the autumn, would the Minister say how far in advance seat allocations are made to the tour operators?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, under IATA arrangements the time that must elapse between the contract and the flight is compulsorily four months on most of the flights to which the noble Baroness has referred. So far as the special inclusive tour arrangements for the Iberian Peninsula are concerned, the same applies in principle, although, because they are coming into operation on April 1, there may not have been four months' notice in all cases.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, is the noble Lord really telling the House that an allocation of up to 50 per cent. of capacity on flights in the summer to Spain and Portugal is not going to affect the private and business traveller in the booking of seats?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, as I have told the noble Baroness, the reason for introducing these schemes is because there is a great deal of empty capacity on scheduled flights at certain times of the day, or of the year, or of the week, as the case may be, and it would be absurd not to make use of these schemes if it can be done.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, is the Minister satisfied that the new arrangements will not cause more inconvenience and dislocation for passengers, through the reprehensible habit of over-booking in which short-haul operators indulge during the season?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, perhaps I may remind my noble friend that, as I told the noble Baroness last time, the Iberian Peninsula tours have not yet been approved by the Minister. But I will draw his attention to what my noble friend has said.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that although we are all certain he has expressed the theory on this matter absolutely correctly, there 61 is increasing doubt among many people whether the theory itself is credible? I know that he interests himself in this matter, and would he consider whether the reason there are so many seats to be filled has not something to do with the fact that the fare to the regular essential traveller is probably too high?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, these things are of course bound to change in the light of experience; nothing is fixed for ever. I shall certainly take account of what the noble Lord has said; or, rather, my noble friend the Secretary of State will do so. As I understand it, the principal reason why there is this empty capacity is because most people prefer to go to the South of Spain on charter flights.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord is correct, but it still remains the fact that the gap between the fare paid by the regular essential traveller, for whose service air transport originally developed, and the probational fares that are now being charged, is far too great; and there is scope for a re-examination of this problem.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords, I would not deny that for an instant; the disparity seems remarkably large. But I need not tell the noble Lord—because he knows very well—that this is not a matter only for the British airlines; they have to reach agreement with other airlines within IATA.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, may I give the Minister a chance to correct himself, because I think, with due respect, he made a slip? As I understood him, he said that the Secretary of State had not yet approved these Iberia flights. May I ask him whether he is aware that I have a paper—he must be, because he gave it to me yesterday—in which the official statement is made that the seat rates have been agreed from April 1 to October 31? How can they have been agreed if the whole plan has not been approved by the Secretary of State?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, in the light of what the noble Baroness has told us. I shall certainly verify what I have said.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, can my noble friend say approximately what the gap is between these two fares?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, there are a great many fares of various ranges, depending on various circumstances—what time of the day you travel, and all the rest of it—but the gap can be as much as two-thirds as between charter services, on the one hand, and normal standard rates, on the other.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, does not the noble Lord think that the answers he has given to my noble friend indicate that this service is not justified, or at least that its frequency should be reconsidered?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am not quite certain what the noble Lord means by "this service". We are talking of the number of seats that can be allocated—up to 50 per cent., on any particular flight; but the actual number assigned on any particular flight to this purpose may vary from zero up to 50 per cent.
§ LORD STONHAMWhat I meant was that if 50 per cent. of the seats have to be allocated on certain flights at very low prices, it seems likely that the flight itself is not justified.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, it is not the case that any particular proportion of seats has to be allocated. The proportion is at the discretion of the airlines.