§ 2.41 p.m.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the starting rate of pay, at a comparable age and with comparable qualifications for:—
- (a) probation officers:
- (b) child care officers.]
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the normal entry salary for a probation officer after professional training is at present £1,215 a year for a young graduate and £1,341 a year for a mature person. For social workers, including child care officers, the scale recommended by the National Joint Council for Local Authorities' Administrative, Professional, Technical and Clerical Services stipulates at present a minimum starting salary of £1,317 a year for those who are professionally qualified, but under a revised scale coming into effect on April 1 next no minimum is stipulated. The actual starting pay of a local authority officer is a matter for the authority to determine having regard to qualifications and experience.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, again I am obliged to the noble Lord for the details he has given which again I should like to look at more closely. In short, can he tell me whether the rates are the same for a probation officer as for a child care officer?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it depends on the point in the salary scale at which the probation officer joins, and the increments depend on his qualifications, training and experience. But after April 1 this year it is probably true to say that the local authority welfare worker will on the whole be doing somewhat better as regards pay than the probation officer.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord, if I may say so, is being just a little evasive. I am obviously on that basis, as I now understand it, he asking him to compare like with like, and 5 is saying that the welfare worker is paid more than the probation officer. I wonder whether this is justifiable. Is not the Probation Service being regarded as the Cinderella of the services? Is there any justification at all for this?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it is very difficult to compare like with like because the local authorities have no maximum salaries; they are entitled to pay what they like to get the people they like. It is true that there has been very great expansion in local authority social work departments recently. The Government greatly value the contribution by the Probation Service, and I can say that representations which have been made recently to my right honourable friend on the subject of probation pay are at present under consideration.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, the noble Lord has said that young graduates entering the Probation Service can start at £1,215. But is it not true that if he or she decided to go into the local authority service and not into the Probation Service he or she could get a starting salary of £1,650 per annum?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I speak subject to correction, because these are detailed matters, but I do not think that would be the case at present under the current rates of pay.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I refer the noble Lord to a letter he sent me on February 1 of this year?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I will study my own correspondence with greater care.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I press the noble Lord again on this matter? The impression that he has tried to give to your Lordships' House is that there is very little, if any, difference between the one Service and the other. If it can be shown that there is a difference, will he look at the matter again sympathetically?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, there is not a very great difference at the present time; but, as I said, I think that 6 from April 1 the gap will open up. Representations on the subject of pay for the Probation Service have bee a made to the Home Secretary. This is a matter in the first instance for the Joint Negotiating Committee for the Probation Service who have held two meetings on this subject recently. The question of pay for the Probation Service is now under review, and the considerations that the noble Lord is advancing will certainly be taken into account.
§ LORD HAMILTON OF DALZELLMy Lords, I know that the salary scales for probation officers are under review at the moment. But is it not the case that, since the Probation Service scales are national scales and immutable, and since the local authorities can pay, in effect, whatever they have to pay in order to get the people they want, in practice at the present time child care officers ire receiving about £300 to £400 a year more than probation officers of similar age, experience and qualifications?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the noble Lord speaks with great experience in this field and, as I have said, the recent expansion of social wok departments throughout the country has meant that local authorities are now taking on more qualified social workers. As a result, since there is no ceiling on the salaries that can be paid, there has tended to be a move upwards. These are exactly the considerations that my right honourable friend will have to take into account when he receives representations from the Joint Negotiating Committee.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, in asking this supplementary question, may I declare an interest? I am a youth club warden of five years' experience, the club having a membership of 850. I am on a salary of £1,120 a year, being the I.L.E.A. scale. Will all these salaries please be taken into consideration.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the Question related to the Probation Service, but I note what the noble Viscount has said.