§ 3.6 p.m.
§ THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF LISTOWEL)My Lords, as several noble Lords have expressed a wish to speak on the Second Reading of the Anglesey Marine Terminal Bill, I propose, with the leave of the House, to postpone my Motion for Second Reading. I have tried to find another time that would be convenient for all noble Lords who have expressed a wish to speak, but I have failed to do so. Because I expect that a number of noble Lords have come to the House this afternoon in order to speak, seeing that the Notice for the Second Reading is on the Order Paper, I propose to postpone my Motion until about 7 o'clock this evening.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, may I ask whether there is any proposal to have a limited discussion, or is it likely to go on without any time being fixed?
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, my reply to the noble Lord is that we do not have a fixed time for any debate; but I can assure him that this will be a short debate and will not make a longer interruption than the normal interruption in the proceedings on the Industrial Relations Bill.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, in order to prevent any disagreement later on, I think it would be better if we had an understanding about this. If we could say that the debate would be terminated within the hour, or postponed after that time, I think that would satisfy most noble Lords.
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, I quite agree that it would be better if we had a fixed time for the debate. I would propose that if the discussion is not completed by 8 o'clock we should adjourn the debate and conclude it next week.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, may I express my sense of disappointment, and indeed protest, at a proceeding whereby the business which is down for a certain time is changed from that time to a later time on the same day when certain noble Lords who wish to speak—including in this instance myself—cannot make it, and when there is only one and a half hours notice given? The Second Reading was on the Order Paper this morning as first business and it was on yesterday's Order Paper as first business. The Lord Chairman of Committees has said that he cannot find a time at which everybody who wishes to speak can do so. That surely must be within a certain number of days, and my question to the Lord Chairman is this: within how many days can he not find time? I appreciate that he cannot find time this afternoon, or perhaps next week. But surely a time may be found during the week after next when all Members of your Lordships' House who wish to speak could do so.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, may I crave the indulgence of the House to support the protest of my noble friend? Some of us, who look upon this as a particularly interesting development in Anglesey, are not sure that the debate could be finished in a short time—not that one would wish to filibuster. The noble Earl tells us that the debate will be short. Speaking personally—not that my wishes and desires matter much—may I say that I had intended to say something in the debate and that, as it happens, I cannot be present at the time now signified. Consequently, will the Government in their magnanimity try to postpone this debate to another period to give us a little more time? I can assure noble Lords opposite that none of us 185 wishes to trespass too much on Government time but we wish to put forward constructive views on this matter.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I wonder whether I may intervene. We do get into this sort of difficulty from time to time. It is not just a matter of the Government being unable to control the situation. It is a matter of the Chairman of Committees doing his best to achieve the impossible; that is, to suit everyone. None the less, we are confronted with this sort of situation at one time or another. It might be that between now and 7 o'clock the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees and the noble Earl the Government Chief Whip—who I know always try to consider the convenience of the Members of your Lordships' House—may wish to consult noble Lords who wish to speak on this matter. It looks as if the debate is likely to take more than an hour. I would entirely exonerate the Lord Chairman of Committees or the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, from doing anything other than trying to suit our convenience, but with no time rule it might just be possible that another time might be suitable. On the other hand, I can see some virtue, if that is what is proposed, in starting the business at 7 o'clock when at least some of the arguments could be put forward. But it might suit the convenience of those noble Lords who cannot speak and to whom this is important, if in the conversations he has between now and 7 o'clock the noble Earl would consider adjourning the debate. I only throw out this suggestion because I know how one can get into a jam in this way.
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition. This is a difficult position. It is the normal custom that if noble Lords wish to raise any matter on the Second Reading of a Private Bill, they give notice to the Lord Chairman of their intention so to do. Late last night some noble Lords had given an indication that they wished to say something. To the best of my knowledge, I do not think that either of the noble Lords who have spoken so far this afternoon gave any indication of their intention.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, I apologise to the noble Earl. I had not 186 known that, maybe because I am practically new and have not yet caught up with your Lordships' procedures.
§ LORD KENNETMy Lords, I did, and I am on the list.
EARL ST. ALDWYNMy Lords, perhaps it will help noble Lords for the future if they know that on a Private Bill it is normal to let the Lord Chairman know that they wish to speak so that he can try to arrange that the Bill be taken at a convenient moment for all concerned. Certainly I shall be happy to look at this matter between now and 7 o'clock, but there are other considerations besides those of the two noble Lords who have spoken. Other noble Lords may not be able to find another time which is convenient for them. Those connected with the Bill are, I believe, travelling down from the North of Wales especially in order to hear the discussion. But as I say, I am very willing to look at this to see whether we can find a better time. If not, I would suggest that we proceed as planned at 7 o'clock until 8 o'clock and then postpone it, if necessary.