§ 2.10 p.m.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the decision to wind up the British National Export Council by the end of 1971, and its consequent present run-down—
- (a) whether they will make a statement concerning the formation and structure of the proposed British Export Board;
- (b) from whom should export assistance be sought in the interim period.]
THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALEYN)My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry announced in answer to a Parliamentary Question on May 11 that he had decided to integrate the various export promotion services at present provided by the British National Export Council and the Department of Trade and Industry into a single organisation under a British Export Board. Since then lie and my right honourable friend the Minister for Trade have been having discussions about the implementation of this decision with representatives of the British National Export Council and of other organisations of British industry including the Trades Union Congress. My right honourable friend intends to discuss these matters with the Chairman of the new Board, who has yet to be designated, before an announcement is made about the detailed arrangements for the Board. In the meantime the existing organisation will continue with current work, and export assistance should continue to be sought from the Department of Trade and Industry and from the British National Export Council.
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that 182 detailed Answer, but may I ask whether he can clarify the position a little further? I understand that there is considerable disquiet still at the moment among British businessmen and also among certain representatives in London of overseas Governments; for instance, if they wish to see a British trade mission come to their country they are not quite certain from whom they should seek guidance in this matter. Can my noble friend say to whom they should go in the case, for instance, of a mission of mixed composition?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, they should certainly go to the British National Export Council for the rest of this year, and if by any chance the British National Export Council is not able to deal with the matter, then they should go to the Department of Trade and Industry.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord two supplementary questions? First, would it not have been wise, before taking the rather sudden decision to disband the British National Export Council, to have some preformed ideas as to the composition of the new body which was to take over from it? Secondly, are Her Majesty's Government aware that they stand in great danger of losing the support of up to 200 British industrialists who put a great deal of their professional time at the disposal of firms exporting, and that this delay is increasing the likelihood of the loss of this support?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, in answer to the noble Lord's first question, Her Majesty's Government had an idea of what the composition would be in the sense of what the structure of the Board should be, but not of the individuals who would compose it at the time they made the decision. With regard to the second supplementary question, the meetings that my right honourable friends have had in the past week should have gone a long way towards allaying any misgivings that there may have been.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, can the noble Lord say when it is expected that the Export Board will be set up, and what will be its constitution?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, as I announced previously, the Board will 183 consist of businessmen. It will have a businessman as chairman; it is likely to have about ten members, and the president of the Board, who will sit as and when he judges necessary, will be the Minister for Trade.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that there is a cycle of operations within the country which is not carried out merely by businessmen-Why have the Government confined themselves principally to business people instead of taking the membership of such a board from a wider field in the country?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the answer is quite simple: it is because it is an executive Board. The Board itself will be wholly responsible for the provision of these services, and in those circumstances it is appropriate that it should be a board of businessmen.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, will not the noble Lord give further consideration to this suggestion, in that the Board will be stronger if it has a leading trade unionist on it, whether it be executive or not? Is he aware that my noble friend Lord Douglass of Cleveland, like myself, has ma de representations, and will he again consider the structure?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, this was one of the matters that was discussed last week with Mr. Feather, and I can assure the noble Lord that there is every intention that the Export Board and the Trades Union Congress should work in the closest partnership in this matter. But it does not necessarily follow that it would be appropriate for a trade union representative to be on the Board, because, of course, the Board does not consist of representatives.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, as the noble Lord has mentioned Mr. Feather, the General Secretary of the T.U.C., may I ask him whether he has agreed in consultations that the trade unions have no interest in such a body?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNQuite the contrary, my Lords. That is why I have said that the Trades Union Congress and the Board will be in the closest touch. I understand that the consultation that my right honourable, friend had with Mr. 184 Feather was quite satisfactory to both parties; but the Government's mind is not closed.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what he means by "businessmen"? Does it include industrialists over the whole field or is it limited to bankers and entrepreneurs?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, it will be both industrialists and traders.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, if I may follow up that question, there was an implication in the noble Lord's reply that the T.U.C. was satisfied not to be represented on the body but only to be consulted. Am I right in thinking that such was the implication in the reply given by the noble Lord?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords. It is difficult to say, not having been present myself, whether the T.U.C. was satisfied on this matter or not, but I believe that an understanding was reached.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, if I may, I should like a more direct answer than that, because on the last occasion when I raised this question the noble Lord said that he would consult the Minister concerned with respect to trade union representation. My curiosity is now aroused when the noble Lord implies that the T.U.C. is satisfied not to be represented on this body, and I should like to know whether this is the fact or merely a supposition?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I wrote to the noble Lord, and I think I have given the best answer that I can give to him. I understand that Mr. Feather fully appreciated the Government's concept of what the Board should be and that it was well understood that the two bodies, the Trades Union Congress and the Export Board, will work very closely together. There was no decision taken that there should be a trade union representative on the Board.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does the noble Lord think that this boycotting and snubbing of 8 million organised trade unionists is in keeping with the Prime Minister's proposal that one nation should be created and not two separate nations?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I think the answer to that is quite simply, "Yes". Perhaps I ought to add that I do not accept that there has been any snub in this matter whatsoever.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be possible to invite a leading trade unionist in a non-representative capacity to serve on the Board?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords. As I have said, the Government's mind is not closed on this matter and the membership of the Board has not yet been decided upon.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, in the light of the reply given by the noble Lord a further question comes to mind. As this is to be an executive Board it will be different from the British National Exports Council, which was not executive. Will the executive powers include powers to instruct manufacturers? If not, how can they be executive?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, because it is executive in relation to the service to individual exporters, the provision of export intelligence, the general publicity effort at home and overseas, the scheme for assistance at trade fairs and British weeks and the Mission scheme, so I do not think it involves directions.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is not one executive authority in any of those phrases he read out? They are all advisory, and if they are all advisory, how can it be an executive body?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, it is an executive body because it directs the whole range of export promotion activities.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, I must ask this question. The powers of this Board are no different from the British National Export Council; if they are different I want to know in what direction they are different, and I have a right to know.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the British National Export Council has 186 full power over missions; it has not full power over export intelligence, and it has not full power over the help of various kinds arranged by the noble Lord, Lord Brown, to exporters. All this will now be combined under the new Board.