§ 3.9 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is expected to be the total cost to the Exchequer of publication and distribution of:
- (i) the full-length version of the White Paper on E.E.C.;
- (ii) the popular version of the same; and
- (iii) the H.M.S.O. Factsheets on Britain and Europe;
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, the cost to the Exchequer of publication and distribution of the White Paper (Cmnd. 4715), is nil, as costs incurred have already been more than covered by revenue from sales. Costs of publishing and distribution of the short version of the White Paper have to date amounted to £191,000 and similar costs for the Factsheets amount to £255,850. To date expenditure on advertising the Factsheets has amounted to £86,150. No separate advertising has been undertaken for the short version of the White Paper. A further £114,550 has been budgeted for future reprints of these publications and advertising for them, but much will depend on public demand for these documents.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, may I first thank the noble Earl, and then ask him whether he will accept my apology for not being here in my place when he made his Statement on Monday? Does he not feel that the expenditure of rather more than £1 million is a little excessive? Does not the situation simply call for the widespread publication of the entry terms, coupled perhaps with a balanced summary of the economic performance of the E.E.C., including its rather shaky performance on the balance of payments? Secondly, there could be a balanced account of the pros and cons in terms of foreign policy.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, perhaps it is my fault, but the noble Lord has his sums wrong. When he looks at my reply he will see that the amount involved is something over £500,000. On the substantive point, we have expended far greater sums on other matters—publicising decimalisation for example. This is a small price to pay in helping towards a better informed public opinion on the most momentous issue of our time.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, am I not right in thinking that in 1961 a similar pamphlet with a green cover was produced for everybody, so that people should know what was involved in the decision that was made? As the noble Earl has said, is this not the biggest decision that the people as a whole have to make in our lifetime? Is it not right that they should know the facts?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, it is true that a series of free broadsheets was produced in 1961 at the time of those negotiations. That precedent was followed by the last Administration at the time of their application in 1967.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, would the noble Earl assure the House that the publication of the popular version of the White Paper—and the House knows my position with regard to the Common Market—is in accordance with the strict rules that are applied within Government? Is he further aware that there were occasions in the previous Government when we were criticised for doing this very thing?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, that is certainly my understanding. There are very many precedents for this, too.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Earl whether, in view of the fact that the Government have pledged themselves to the policy and principles of private enterprise, they could not leave the advertising for entry into the Common Market to the miscellaneous collection who advertise frequently in The Times and provide sumptuous luncheons and banquets? Why should the Government spend money on something about which they are well aware that at least half the electorate of the country hold contrary views?
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, does the noble Lord regard that as taking an objective view?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I note with pleasure the noble Lord's support for private enterprise. I am glad to see that he is coming round to our way of thinking in these matters. It is right for the Government of the day, as it was right for the last Government of the day, and for the Government of the day before that, to lay the full facts before the people of this country. These facts are appreciated. The extraordinary demand for the full facts about the Common Market is worth noting. Some 5½ million copies of the short version of the White Paper have been produced. Only 1¾ million of these were initially distributed, but a further 1¼ million have already been distributed as a result of public demand, which is running at some 100,000 copies a day. This shows the appetite of the public for the facts on this subject, and those facts are clearly set out.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, one appreciates the appetite, but does not that make advertising rather superfluous?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, my noble friend has a further Question down on the Order Paper, and my Answer to that further Question will bear on the point he has just made.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, in the noble Earl's original Answer, if I heard him correctly, he referred to precedents for this type of advertising. If there are such precedents, would he make them known to the House? That would be very helpful in meeting criticism which is made on this matter. The noble Earl referred to decimalisation. Would he not agree that there is a fundamental difference between propaganda documents which are explaining something that has already happened, and documents which are putting forward policy on an issue which is not yet determined? Could he give us precedents particularly in regard to putting forward policy which is not yet determined?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I did not in my original reply say anything about precedents. I referred to this in 1119 answer to a supplementary question, and there are precedents in the time of both the last Administration and the previous Conservative Administration. In answer to what the noble Baroness has said about decimalisation, I thought that that was in anticipation of the event in many important respects. It is worth remembering that at the moment we spend something like £4 million a year on advertising in support of recruiting for the Armed Forces. There are many noble Lords on all sides of the House who do not support the policy of more and bigger Armed Forces.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, with regard to the distribution cost of this literature, what was the amount of money allocated to the Post Office, in the total sum that the noble Earl mentioned? Was any form of direction given to the Post Office Board that they should act as the agents on behalf of the Government for such distribution?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I should need notice with regard to the first part of that question. In answer to the second part of the question, I do not think that there was any direction, but there is a contract with the Post Office.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask a question in support of the noble Earl, Lord Lauderdale, particularly in view of the kind things that he said about me yesterday? While it is tremendously important that the facts should be known to the public, is not the criticism of this Governmental expenditure before Parliament has voted on the matter due to the fact that these documents are propagandist and are not just a factual statement on what we need to know?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I note the growing alliance between the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, and my noble friend Lord Lauderdale. It is always interesting to see these friendships consolidating in your Lordships' House. I do not accept the criticism which the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, has just made. So far as certainly the broadsheets or the Factsheets are concerned, this is entirely factual information, and, what is more, the disadvantages of entry 1120 are stated in those Factsheets quite plainly, as well as the advantages.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, since the noble Earl has stated, in extenuation of the Government's policy of advertising for entering the Common Market, that we spend vast sums of money for recruiting purposes, and in view of the fact, unfortunately in my view—it is a personal view—that the sum spent on recruiting has not met with a large measure of success, may I ask whether the noble Earl expects the same to happen with regard to advertising for the E.E.C.?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, that supplementary goes a little wide of the previous Question. All I should like to say is that I am not apologising for Her Majesty's Government's policy in this respect; I am defending a policy which is justified and justifiable on all counts.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, while agreeing with the noble Earl that my noble friend's question went rather wide, may I ask whether the noble Earl will now reply to the very close question which was put to him by my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger? Will he give the precedents where the Post Office and other services have been provided to put forward a point of view about which Parliament had not yet made up its mind?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I have already very clearly stated the precedents for this, but if the noble Lord wishes to put down a further Question on the matter, if in any way I have not adequately replied to the noble Baroness then of course I shall be glad to answer.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, all we are asking is that the noble Earl will put the precedents in the OFFICIAL REPORT or in reply to a later Question, so that we have them concretely.
§ LORD BROWNMy Lords, would the noble Earl agree that one of the burdens of good democratic Government is the grave difficulty in a Government's finding means of untrammelled communication of facts to the public, and that in 1121 the light of this the expenditure occasionally of relatively small sums on conveying facts to the public is justified?
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, would not the Minister consider that it would be better to have a General Election so that the people could decide this issue for themselves, instead of trying to brainwash them by this propaganda?
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, that is another question. Perhaps it is the right point of departure for the next Question on the Order Paper.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may I just ask whether the noble Earl is also aware that by coincidence we are debating the Common Market next week? Would he consider not only publishing precedents but, perhaps in reply to a Question, publishing the rules that govern this matter? I am not at all averse to publication in this sort of way, but there are fairly strict rules on which I think the House would like to be satisfied.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government in what further advertising costs it is proposed to involve the Exchequer with a view to informing or influencing public opinion about E.E.C. in advance of Parliament's own judgment of the matter, still to be expressed in the Division Lobbies.]
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, at present there are no further plans for any more expenditure on advertising other than those stated in my reply to my noble friend's first Question.
§ THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEMy Lords, not wishing to start any further hares, may I ask the noble Earl whether he is aware that this second Answer will give great satisfaction?