§ 2.59 p.m.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether any agreement has been concluded to supply arms to Uganda.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN)My Lords, it is not Government policy to disclose information about arms sales to individual countries.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I apreciate that, but is the Minister aware that I did not ask for details? Is it possible for him to say whether, as a result of the recent visit of General Amin, and because of his fears of Tanzania, which have since been disproved, the supply of arms to Uganda was increased?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANNo, my Lords; I cannot say that, because the conversations which took place between General Amin and members of the British Government must, as I am sure the noble Lord realises, remain confidential. I can tell the noble Lord that the question of arms generally arose, as indeed did many other matters of concern to the President.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I should like to press the noble Marquess, because in supplementary answers the other day, in regard to arms to Pakistan, his noble friend Lord Carrington made it clear that no arms were being supplied. May I press the noble Marquess as to whether there has been any agreement with the new Government of Uganda for the supply of arms?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I think I can assure the noble Lord that there has been no question of an agreement. There have been discussions on these matters.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, could the noble Lord say whether any agreement has been concluded by any other country to supply arms to Uganda?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANNo, my Lords, I could not answer the noble Lord on that point without notice.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, was not the noble Marquess's first reply a little inconsistent, in that Her Majesty's Government gave very clear indications of the sale of arms to South Africa?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I hope I was not being inconsistent. It is not the policy of Her Majesty's Government to-day to disclose matters concerning arms sales to individual countries; but I do not think I was being inconsistent.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in the light of that reply, which is a very dangerous one and one which I do not think we should allow to pass, are we to understand that Her Majesty's Government will not disclose to your Lordships' House whether they supply arms to South Africa?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANNo, my Lords, I would not wish noble Lords to put that interpretation on what I said.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is not the noble Lord responsible for an error about the situation? Has it not always been the policy of successive Governments in this country to refuse to disclose the actual volume of arms supplied to other countries, although they have admitted that arms have occasionally been supplied? It is the number of forces or weapons of which Governments have always refused to give details.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I think the noble Lord is quite right; and it is also true that this country in the past has been a traditional supplier of arms to Uganda.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, in view of that answer, would the noble Marquess now reply to my Question? Is he aware that I did not ask him for details of arms supplies? I asked him in principle whether agreement has been reached with Uganda for the supply of arms, and surely that broader question comes within the precedent of Government Answers.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANNo, my Lords, because I cannot answer that Question. I hoped I had answered it by telling the House and the noble Lord that there had been discussions with the President on this and other matters; but the content of these discussions must remain confidential, I insist.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the noble Marquess may say that these discussions took place and are confidential. Can he reaffirm what he said to me that there has been no agreement? That is the question.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANYes, my Lords; these conversations and discussions, which took place only a few days ago, were confidential. I can confirm to noble Lords that certainly no agreement has taken place as the result of these discussions.
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, when my noble friend raised the point of apparent inconsistency about Africa the noble Marquess seemed to emphasise the word "to-day". Does that mean that if my noble friend Lord Brockway puts down the Question again next week the policy may be different?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, will not put down a similar Question next week because I doubt very much whether I can give him a different Answer if he does.
§ LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEUMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that in view of the vast amount of arms being supplied to Uganda's neighbours from the Eastern bloc countries it would probably be right that Her Majesty's Government should look sympathetically at any request from Uganda for arms for her own defence?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANMy Lords, this raises rather a different problem, because it has been the policy of Her Majesty's Government, and indeed of past Governments, as far as possible not to interfere in the internal relationships between one Commonwealth country and another; and I think the matter that the noble Lord has raised really brings up all these points.