§ 3.23 p.m.
LORD TEYNHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have any proposals for the reorganisation of the National Bus Company, which has not only made a loss in their last fianncial year of £8 million, compared with a profit of £800,000 in 1969, but has had a loan from the Government of £6 million to cover cash needs for 1971.]
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, 1970 was a bad year for most bus operators, including the National Bus Company. The reasons are fully set out in their annual report. Earlier this year, my right honourable friend the Minister for Transport Industries told Parliament that the Company were taking appropriate action and that the Government were 497 meanwhile making up to £6 million available in additional loans towards the Company's capital expenditure in 1971. I am informed that the current year is showing better results, and that so far it has been necessary for only £2 million of these loans to be taken up.
LORD TEYNHAMMy Lords, may I thank the Minister for his reply. Would he not agree that before nationalisation many of the bus companies were making money? Would he not consider denationalisation and handing over their control to a combination of local authorities and private enterprises? Would he not further agree that, owing to the withdrawal of many of the bus services from country districts and the failure of local authorities to carry out the terms of the Transport Act 1968, very many villages have become completely isolated? Could not small enterprising operators be released from the restrictions imposed by the traffic commissioners?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, my noble friend has asked me one or two questions. The intention is that the National Bus Company will operate at a surplus and we have given them the target of £8 million, which will enable them to service their loans from the Government and keep their heads above water. They did make a profit in 1969, as my noble friend will no doubt be aware, and we have every hope that this year the position of 1970 will be reversed.
As regards the local authorities, they need to be encouraged by the Government and the local public whom they serve. Devonshire have taken the lead in appointing a full-time transport co-ordinating officer, while Yorkshire and West Suffolk are also setting a very good example in helping their local bus services. My right honourable friend will be announcing, probably this month, the result of the rural bus studies which are now to hand, and I hope he will have some comments which the House will find interesting. We are also looking at the licensing system, and we shall be coming forward with suggestions for this in the future.
§ VISCOUNT ADDISONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that in Devon there 498 is practically no public transport to coordinate? Nearly all the railways have been removed, and the bus companies seem to have suspended operations.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think the noble Viscount will find that this will soon not be the case.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that much of the country is going to be without a bus service unless some other means are found to help? Is the noble Lord aware that many of these bus companies are no longer receiving the subsidy from the Railways Board to run these uneconomic services? Can the noble Lord say whether, if the local authorities do grant a subsidy to the bus companies, the local authority, in turn, will qualify for additional percentage grants from the central Government?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I think it cannot be said too often that the Government give any local authority 50 per cent. towards its subsidy on rural services, and the 50 per cent. that they are spending will come up for normal rate-support grant anyhow.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend one simple, straightforward question? Since the National Bus Company not only have operating but also manufacturing interests, can he say how far the loss of £8 million is split between those two sides of their business, and whether there is any particular agreement as to a division between support for the operating and manufacturing interests in the loan of £6 million?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as regards the first part of my noble friend's question, I must ask him to put it down on paper for me and I will get the answer. I do not have it with me at the moment.