§ 4.0 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, I should like with the permission of the House, to repeat a Statement that is being made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland in another place on the reform of housing in Scotland. The Statement is as follows:
" Since our plans were outlined in the House on November 3, I have been discussing them in detail with the Scottish local authority associations. The White Paper which I am to-day presenting to the House sets out the Government's proposals, framed in the light of these discussions. Copies of the 373 White Paper are available in the Vote Office from 4 p.m. "—
and in the Printed Paper Office of your Lordships' House.
" We intend to introduce a national scheme providing rent rebates for all tenants of unfurnished houses who need help to pay a reasonable rent, whether their landlords are public authorities or private individuals. Under this scheme, for example, a married man with three children earning £20 a week who pays a rent of £1.42 a week, which is the average council house rent in Scotland, will have it reduced to 75p a week.
Most of the cost of these rebates will be met by the Government. In addition, we are proposing to replace the existing subsidies for house building by three new subsidies, designed to give special help to those authorities which still need to build substantial numbers of houses and to those which still have slums to clear. The new slum clearance subsidy will meet 75 per cent. of the cost of slum clearance operations, and it will be payable on expenditure incurred in the present financial year.
" We intend to introduce a more rational and uniform system for fixing rents in the public sector. The White Paper proposes that each local authority should be required to increase rents until its income from them, taken together with the new subsidies, meets its total housing expenditure. These rent increases, however, will be limited to an average of 50p a week for any one year, and no individual tenant will have his rent increased for any year by more than 75p a week.
" In the private sector we propose to speed up the conversion of the remaining controlled tenancies to rent regulation. Here again rent rebates will prevent hardship, and the fair rent will be reached by three equal annual increases.
" The changes we now propose will redirect Government help to the tenants and to the areas which most need it, and they will ease the heavy burden of housing expenditure which Scottish ratepayers now bear. They will provide 374 the right framework in which to pursue successfully the policies needed to meet the housing problems of Scotland, now and in the future.
" We intend to introduce a Bill early in the next Session to give effect to the proposals in the White Paper."
My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, may I start by thanking the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, for repeating this Statement. In the absence of the White Paper, I have difficulty in commenting on it in detail and the noble Baroness will not expect that, because my remarks to-day are few, they will necessarily continue to be that way once I have seen the White Paper. But I should like to comment on some of the points in the Statement as they arose.
The noble Baroness referred to the man with an income of £20 a week presently paying a rent of £1.42, which is the average in Scotland, and said that this would be reduced to 75p. This, of course, assumes that the man at present is not in receipt of a rent rebate. The noble Baroness will be aware that there will be many people in Scotland at that income level who may well he paying a rent of less than 75p per week because of the existence of the local authority's rebate system, and she will doubtless be aware of the fact that the last Government laid considerable stress on the value of introducing rebate schemes in Scotland to accompany rent increases.
In relation to the fifth paragraph of the Statement, where it says:
We intend to introduce a more rational and uniform system for fixing rents in the public sectormay I ask if this is to be by the same method as was referred to in the English Statement yesterday, of importing the fair rents structure? As the Statement goes on, it would seem not to be that, because it seems to indicate that rents are to rise in Scotland until there is no deficit on the housing account. May I therefore ask the noble Baroness to what figure the £1.42 present average will rise when a situation has been reached in which there is no deficit on the housing revenue account after taking into consideration the subsidies? May I also ask 375 the noble Baroness who will undertake the work of rent allowances in the private sector in Scotland? Finally, how many additional employees, either at Government or at local authority level, is it expected that this scheme will require?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. I think the first part was a comment, but I should like specifically to reply to his questions. He is, of course, quite right in saying that in Scotland, in the local authority sector, we are basing these rent rebates on the historic pooled costs, and it is not equivalent to the fair rent system in England. In the private sector we are seeking to introduce into regulated tenancies the remaining controlled tenancies in Scotland, which amount altogether to between 100,000 and 150,000. On the question of who will fix the rent in the private sector, it will be done either by agreement or by the rent officer; and in the public sector it will be fixed, as it is now, by the local authority. Wirth regard to the last question, I cannot at the moment say how many additional staff will be required.
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, may I take the noble Baroness back to the first question? Can she tell me what the average rent is expected to be when the housing account is put in balance?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sorry: I did note it but I could not read my own writing. At present, the average standard rent is £1.42, as I have said. It is very difficult to say exactly what it will be in the future because circumstances differ so much from authority to authority. But, to give an example, if local authorities had balanced their accounts in 1969/1970 the average standard rent would have been about £3.10 a week.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, it would be a mistake to pursue this discussion any further until we have the White Paper, but I should like to congratulate the Government on the principles on which it is based. May I ask one question? Will these new financial 376 arrangements apply equally to those houses which have already been built and to future houses which are going to be built, having regard, of course, to any real differences in value in the same way?
§ LORD HUGHESMy Lords, before the noble Baroness answers, may I say that it is the tradition that the Liberal Benches get a chance to come in before anyone else?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sorry, but I felt that I was not in a position to control the proceedings. No doubt that will be noted. I thank my noble friend for his contribution, and would say that the new arrangements will apply both to existing houses and to new houses.
§ LORD TANLAWMy Lords, I had hoped for a moment that the noble Earl, Lord Dundee, was going to make a liberal speech for me on this occasion. Our reactions to the noble Baroness's Statement can only be first reactions, and from these Benches they are naturally governed by the unemployment and low-wage situation existing in Scotland at this time. In view of this we shall have to look very carefully at the rent increases as well as the rent rebates outlined by the noble Baroness before we can ask our questions. But the Liberal Party objects as a matter of principle to any additional national means test which this Statement implies may have to come about. We believe that there must be a fairer and more effective method of housing assistance to be considered first.
On housing matters, we like to make a distinction between the house and the household. I mean by that that subsidies given by past Governments for bricks and mortar have not been satisfactory, and in one sense we are not sorry to see them go because they are inefficient. In so far as the household is concerned, in our opinion it would be fairer and more efficient to subsidise by means of fiscal assistance without a means test. The most obvious method would he by tax rebates, using the income tax machinery which is already in existence; and in cases where families pay no income tax—which regrettably 377 is not an uncommon fact in Scotland—we should like the noble Baroness to perhaps consider housing grants. This method has the advantage of tailoring the housing assistance available to the needs of the individual families. We have no further questions until there has been a chance to look at the Statement more fully.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I quite appreciate that it is difficult for any noble Lord to comment on a White Paper which we have tried to make brief, but which will need considerable study. But I would say to the noble Lord that of course we have felt that it is very important to try to redirect subsidies, first of all to the areas where there is greatest need and, secondly, in rent allowances or rent rebates to the people who are in the greatest need. It is these two principles which lie behind the White Paper.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, this is a very complicated Statement. May I ask the noble Baroness to clarify one or two points for me? First, will the landlord get more rent from the tenants in the private sector? Secondly, will the tenants in many cases pay part of this amount? Thirdly, will the taxpayer also pay part? Fourthly, does this not amount to a Government subsidy to private landlords?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's first question, the landlord will of course receive more rent but some of these rents—I understand the noble Lord is referring only to the private sector—are very low indeed, the tenancies being controlled. In fact the average is 30p per week, I believe, and landlords have not been able to make the repairs that they would like to make. So in that way this will help them. The second question was as to whether the tenant would pay part. The tenant will pay the rent unless his income is such that he is eligible for a rent rebate. To the third question, as to whether the taxpayer will pay part, the answer is: yes, my 378 Lords, because in these subsidies the Government are paying, for example, 90 per cent. in the first year, 85 per cent. in the second year, 80 per cent. in the third year and thereafter 75 per cent. I think that answers the last question, because the Government are collecting the money on behalf of the taxpayer.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, can the noble Baroness answer with more precision? I hesitate to use that word after the last exchange, but my fourth question was, does this not represent a Government subsidy to private landlords?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sorry: the noble Lord asked four questions and I had a little difficulty in following one. It is a subsidy primarily to the tenants because the result of this will be that if the landlord receives a higher rent, fixed by the rent officer, he will be able to carry out repairs and improve these houses on behalf of the tenant.
§ LORD HOYMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness one question, to avoid any misunderstanding? During the course of her Statement she intimated that the Bill will be introduced early next Session. Are we to understand that this will be a purely Scottish Bill and not joint legislation covering the whole country?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords; I can give that assurance. It will be a Scottish Bill.
§ LORD COOPER OF STOCKTON HEATHMy Lords, we were discussing the emergency legislation and the provision for the Secretary of State, if need be, to seek an order through the Industrial Court—
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL JELLICOE)My Lords, I must apologise but I think the position is that clearance had not been received for the third Statement when the noble Lord began to speak. It has now been received, and if it is agreeable to the noble Lord my noble friend Lord Sandford would like to repeat it.