BARONES WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a fact (as broadcast by the British Broadcasting Corporation) that the police have been making random searches for drugs of persons arriving by car or by rail at the recent"pop "-music festival at Reading; and, if so, how is this consistent with the statutory requirement that searches can only be made where a police officer has reasonable grounds to suspect illegal possession of drugs.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, the Chief Constable of the Thames Valley Police has said that he has no information to substantiate the allegation that random searches were made. He is satisfied from his own inquiries that police officers had reasonable grounds for suspecting offences under the Dangerous Drugs Act or Drugs (Prevention of Misuse) Act before any action was taken.
BARONES WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his Answer, may I ask him one or two supplementaries? First of all, is he aware that searches at Reading included local residents, whether or not they were going to the"pop"festival, and that these searches involved feeling inside women's brassieres and asking them to let down their trousers, if they were wearing these? Secondly, can he explain the difference between searching for drugs every passenger on a coach arriving at a particular destination, as I 342 understand happened at Reading, or a proportion of passengers coming off a train, and spot checks for excess alcohol on motorists driving on a particular road? Or are we to conclude that spot checks which were emphatically rejected by Parliament in connection with the Road Safety Act are to be legal in connection with the Dangerous Drugs Act?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I am not familiar with the nature of the searches carried out by the Thames Valley Police. All I can say is that the Chief Constable has assured us, having made inquiries, that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting offences under the drugs legislation. Nobody knows better than the noble Baroness does the very great difficulty of defining what is meant by"reasonable grounds"in this connection. The previous Government set up an inquiry, of which the noble Baroness was a member, on this exact point of powers of arrest and search in relation to drug offences, and concluded that reasonable grounds have never been defined and that it was not possible to give a definition.
BARONES WOOTTON OF ABINGEROn that last point, my Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the Government have or have not accepted the unanimous recommendation of the Deedes Committee, to which he has referred, that dress and hair style should not, by themselves or together, be reasonable grounds for search for drugs, and that the police should be asked to accept this principle? Might I also ask the Minister whether he would look further into this matter, because I have a very large volume of disturbing correspondence about the searches that took place?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, we accept what the noble Baroness has said about dress and hair style, and my right honourable friend has circularised police forces to this effect. Dress and hair style are not factors which, on their own, should be regarded as constituting"reasonable grounds ". As she will know, however, they are included in the list of 11 criteria which, taken together, are regarded as constituting grounds of a kind which the courts would regard as reasonable. I should certainly like to hear from the noble Baroness. As I say, the Chief Constable has made inquiries, 343 but if the noble Baroness has any information which is not known to us I will certainly arrange for it to be investigated.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, will the Minister look into the matter further to find out how, when passengers are getting off a train, it is possible to discriminate between those who are reasonably to be suspected of illegal possession of drugs and those who are not, unless it is by their appearance?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the police are concerned with all the circumstances of the particular occasion. The fact that a"pop"festival was taking place at Reading was a circumstance which the Chief Constable took into account. Had the passengers been getting off a train at Windsor, presumably they would not have been stopped.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, in view of the rather disturbing information my noble friend has put by way of questions this afternoon, may I hope that the noble Lord will make inquiries into this incident? One always has to bear in mind the relationship of the police with the general community. In the light of what was said on the B.B.C. and what the noble Lord has said, that there were not spot checks, it would be for the good of the police that this were made clear. And I think this can arise only as a consequence of an inquiry by the noble Lord.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I hope that I have made myself abundantly clear. We have made inquiries. There were between 30,000 and 50,000 people present at this festival. What I have said is that if the noble Baroness has any information which is new to us, we will certainly investigate it.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will help me. It is quite obvious that it is very difficult—in fact, quite impossible—to produce a general definition of what are reasonable grounds. But is it not possible to tell us what were considered by the police to be reasonable grounds in these cases? Can the House be informed of this in some manner?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMYes, my Lords. I would refer the noble Viscount 344 to paragraph 123 of the Report of the Advisory Committee on Drug Dependence on Powers of Arrest and Search in Relation to Drug Offences. Some criteria are set out there.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, does the noble Lord think that in this case we are getting dangerously near to the theory of guilt by association, and does he think that even the stimulus to police recruiting that this incident might give is likely to be outweighed by the former theory?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMNo, my Lords; I do not think that. This is a controversial matter on which opinions differ. We discussed the question of police powers of arrest and search at considerable length during the passage of the Misuse of Drugs Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Wootton of Abinger, was among those in this House, and was a member of the minority on the Advisory Committee, who argued strongly against these powers. But this House, by an overwhelming majority, came to the conclusion that the powers should be retained in the new legislation.
§ VISCOUNT MONCKTON OF BRENCHLEYMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that the number of convictions after this event lead to the supposition that there were reasonable grounds for searching somebody?
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, arising out of that, can the Minister say how many searches and how many convictions there were; what drugs were found, and in what quantities?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I cannot tell the noble Baroness what drugs were found and in what quantities. I can tell her that 1,811 people were stopped and searched on the grounds that they were suspected of being in illegal possesion of drugs. Subsequently, 119 were charged and convicted.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, may I ask how many police dressed up as"hippies"were searched? The noble Lord need not answer that.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, cannot the Minister discourage—
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMay I ask one more question, my Lords? Cannot the Minister discourage the very disagreeable practice of disguising police officers in the style of dress which they regard as that of"hippies ", in order to get the confidence of people similarly dressed?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, perhaps we ought to try to make this question the last on this exchange. The noble Lord, Lord Fraser of Lonsdale, has a further question to-day on the same festival. This is a difficult matter. Clearly, the police officers attending festivals of this sort must do so in plain clothes. If they went in uniform it would be totally impossible for them to enforce the law. The style of plain clothes that is adopted must be left to the police.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSThe noble Lord, Lord Windlesham said that a certain number had been searched and convicted. Is he aware that the proportion of those convicted works out at about one in twelve? Does he consider that it was right to search 12 people, of whom eleven were found to be innocent, in order to convict one? Is that a right proportion?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, these statistics can be read in different ways, but for a festival of this sort the proportion is not unusual.