§ 2.54 p.m.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, having regard to the grant from public funds made to the National Council of Social Service towards the cost of the Citizens Advice Bureaux service, they are aware of the dispute between those two bodies which could have a damaging effect on the value of the service to the community of the Citizens Advice Bureaux.]
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY or STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, before answering this Question perhaps I should tell your Lordships that before joining the Government I was a member of the Executive of the National Council of Social Service and chairman of one of its associated groups. Her Majesty's Government are aware that there have been some differences between the National Council of Social Service and the Council of the Citizens Advice Bureaux, but have taken the view that the way in which the National Council of Social Service and the Citizens Advice Bureaux Council arrange their internal affairs is a matter entirely for them. I cannot say whether the dispute will have any damaging effect on the value of the Citizens Advice Bureaux. It would certainly be wrong to assume that it will.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his reply, may I ask him whether he really feels that, when a voluntary organisation is receiving something like £200,000 per annum by way of Exchequer grants, how that money is spent is not a matter for the Government to interest themselves in, to see that that money is spent in the best possible way? Does he not feel that if there is internal friction which might affect one of their most valuable services to the community it should be the Government's concern?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. The service provided by the Citizens Advice Bureaux is, 350 of course, of very great and direct concern when it comes to allocating grant, but it is not the service which is at stake at the moment. There have been some changes in personality and disagreements about structure.
§ LORD WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Minister whether he is not aware that the value of the contribution of the citizens advice service to this country, which is well-known, could easily be threatened because within the Citizens Advice Bureaux at the present moment there is a good deal of unhappiness at the arbitrary way in which the National Council of Social Service has sacked the Secretary, and that could well affect the service?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, it is just possible that the service might be affected, but organisations surmount these difficulties and there is no reason at the moment to suppose that this difficulty will not be overcome.
§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEKMy Lords, in view of the Minister's experience and the work that he himself has done in this field, as some of us know, will he do his utmost to see that in these organisations, if possible, differences of personality are eradicated? Many of us are grateful for the work of the Citizens Advice Bureaux and the National Council of Social Service. It has given comfort, succour and help in moments of need to hundreds of thousands of people in this country. It is essential that we eradicate differences, and I hope the Minister will try to help.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I am glad to receive from the noble Lord his tribute to the work and the service to the community rendered by the Citizens Advice Bureaux. I remain confident that these difficulties are being overcome.