§ 2.40 p.m.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government why the Northern univerities ask for a higher standard for girl applicants to the medical schools than for boys, as revealed in the Leeds Medical Faculty prospectus, which states that boys will be expected to obtain three Grade "C" passes at "A" level (or better) while girls must obtain two Grade "B" passes and a "C" (or better).]
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, the admission of students is a matter for the individual universities. I understand that the Leeds Medical Faculty have resolved during the present session that 184 the sole criterion for selection should be suitability for the medical course, irrespective of sex.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he has not denied the information I have given? Is not he aware that to-day we are very short of doctors, that we are compelled to take them from Pakistan and India, where they are very much needed? Is it not a most short-sighted policy for the Government still to continue this discrimination against able girls?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I entirely appreciate both the experience and the strength of feeling from which the noble Baroness speaks. The noble Baroness knows better than I not only the extent of the shortage but the effect it has. I would not diagree with her on that. I would certainly disagree when she talks about Goverment policy. I think I answered that part of the supplementary question in my original Answer.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that it must surely be Government policy if we are so short of doctors that we have to take Commonwealth doctors from those countries? If he is so sympathetic will he also see to it that the London medical schools increase the number of women they are prepared to take, which at the moment is a small percentage of the whole? Is not this also most stupid, prejudiced and discriminatory?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, the numbers in the London medical schools are rising. I think all your Lordships would hope, with the noble Baroness, that these figures might continue to reflect the decision which Leeds has in fact taken.
§ LORD GARDINERMy Lords, are not these practices in fact a breach of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act? If the noble Lord cannot answer that question to-day, would he be kind enough to write and let me know on what grounds they are not?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I think I can give this answer to the question which the noble and learned Lord has asked me. I would be advised, I think, that if there were any contravention of the Sex Disqualification (Removal) Act 1919, it would not be for Her Majesty's 185 Government to enforce the law, and that the remedy for any woman aggrieved would be by way of civil injunction. I know this is not quite a direct answer to the noble and learned Lord, but I am afraid it is the best I can give this afternoon.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask, in support of this Question, whether in due course, when the noble Lord has had time to gather the information, we could have a report on the conditions regarding the admission of women to the medical degrees of our various services?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I have figures here, but I do not think they fully answer the noble Baroness, and if I may, I will write to her. If the noble Baroness wishes to press me, I have certain answers, but I do not think they provide the global total she is asking for.
§ LORD PLATTMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that, as I have said before in this House, the number of foreign doctors from India and Pakistan and other places is not a fair index of the shortage of medical men in this country? The position is greatly complicated. The majority of these doctors are holding only temporary posts, and if you were to qualify enough people to fill all those posts with British people they would be out of work for most of the rest of their lives.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving his expert advice in question form to the House. It might interest the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet, that the total number of medical school places has increased from 2,020 in 1961 to 2,873 last autumn, and plans have been announced in Parliament for continued expansion to over 4,000 by the late 1970s. I give that information in conjunction with what the noble Lord has just said.
BARONESS SUMMER SKILLMy Lords, can the noble Lord amplify that information? There are 2,000 places for women. How many are there for men?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, that was not the figure I gave.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, can the Minister make quite 186 clear whether the figure he has given is for women applicants or for total applicants?
§ LORD BELSTEADTotal.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, may I ask the Minister what his reaction would be if the Northern Universities set out in their prospectuses that higher entry qualifications would be required from coloured applicants than from white, and what would be the difference between that type of discrimination and this?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I think that is a little wide of the original Question.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord why the Government feel so strongly about colour discrimination and prejudice, and why they do not feel so strongly about sex discrimination and prejudice?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am not aware that I have given any opinion about colour discrimination and prejudice.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, it is in the papers every day.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, although the House thinks that the Minister is batting manfully on an impossible wicket, would he consider preparing a statement which bears on the specific point of my noble friend's Question, as to why this discrimination is acceptable and whether the Government ought not to have a view on it?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am in the fortunate position to-day of being able to read up a Question and the answers given by the noble Baroness, Lady Phillips, for whom I have the greatest admiration, at the time of the last Government. This is why I was delighted to be able to say, at least to my noble friend, that the numbers planned for the 1970s show a considerable lightening of the situation, and to be able to assure the noble Baroness, Lady Summer-skill, that we agree with her in principle and sympathetically.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, would the noble Lord be equally delighted to answer a very simple 187 question to which I have not heard the answer. I believe he told the noble Baroness, Lady Emmet of Amberley, that there were 2,000 vacancies for medical students this year. Could he tell us how many of those are for women?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am sorry; I do not think I can at the moment. I have papers, but I am becoming increasingly muddled with them. If I may, I will write to the noble Baroness.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, could the reply to my question be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, if a Written Question is put down by the noble Baroness, most certainly. I have no wish in any way to dodge this issue. If the noble Baroness would like to table another Question, I shall of course be here to reply.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can the noble Lord inform the House whether many outstanding candidates, regardless of sex, are still being rejected by medical schools owing to the inadequate number of places available for entrants?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I am sorry, but I think we are getting a little wide of the original Question.
§ LORD SLATERMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the very fact that this Question has been tabled, and has led to so many supplementaries shows that, although one was of the opinion that all major Parties believed in freedom of opportunity and equality, it seems from the action of the present Government, and of previous Governments also, that that line of approach has not been taken? Does this matter not warrant further consideration, to bring about this equality of opportunity?
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I will certainly draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what has been said in the House to-day.