DEFENCE LAND HOLDINGS (Hansard, 14 January 1971)

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they can now make an announcement about the review of coastal and country sites occupied by the Ministry of Defence.]

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)
My Lords, the review of Defence land holdings is to be undertaken by a Committee which I am appointing under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Nugent 211 of Guildford. I am very grateful to my noble friend for agreeing to undertake this important task. The Committee's terms of reference are: To review the holding of land in the United Kingdom by the Armed Forces or by the Ministry of Aviation Supply for Defence purposes:

(a) for training areas, airfields and ranges wherever situated;

(b) for any purpose in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty; and

(c) along the coastline for purposes other than dockyards and port installations.

Taking account of the long-term needs of the Armed Forces and their operational efficiency, and the cost and other relevant considerations, to make recommendations to the Secretary of State for Defence and the Minister of Aviation Supply as to what changes should be made in these holdings and in improved access for the public, having regard to recreation, amenity, or other uses which might be made of the land. Apart from the Chairman, the Committee has six independent members; namely, Mr. Duncan Alexander, Major J. M. Askew, Mr. John Cripps, Mr. Jack Hargreaves, Colonel R. J. L. Jackson and Mr. Nigel Strutt. In addition, there will be senior representatives of the three Services and officials from the Northern Ireland Government, my Department, the Scottish Office, the Department of the Environment, the Welsh Office and the Ministry of Aviation Supply.
The inquiry will be a major undertaking and one of very great concern to the Services as well as to all concerned with amenity and recreation in the countryside. I am confident that the strong Committee that I am appointing is the best possible instrument to carry out this important task.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that those who are interested in this very important subject will welcome the appointment of this Committee, but may I ask him this question? Although we have to preserve the amenities and the interests of the general public, and avoid any undue interference with good agricultural land, is it not also essential that we should provide adequate facilities for the training of our forces? Will this be borne in mind by the members of the Committee?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I am glad to think that my noble friend 212 Lord Nugent of Guildford has heard that sentiment expressed by the noble Lord, with which I entirely agree.

§ LORD SLATER
My Lords, may I ask the Minister this question? In view of the statement that he has made about the setting up of the Committee for this inquiry under the noble Lord, Lord Nugent of Guildford—for whom I have the very highest regard, and who in my opinion will turn out to be a very good Chairman—as I do not know any of the other members who have been appointed, may I ask whether they will be allowed within their terms of reference to travel the country as a whole, instead of keeping, as it were, to an Ordnance map and just picking out particular sites?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, of course this is largely a matter for my noble friend and the Committee, but I very much hope that they will look at the land and not just sit in an office and look at a map.

LORD HAWKE
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm that, if any land turns out to be surplus to Defence requirements, the usual procedure, that it is hawked round to every other Government Department before it returns to public use, will not apply?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I do not think I would give any undertaking of any kind at this stage; I would rather hear what the noble Lord, Lord Nugent, and his Committee have to say before I answer that question from my noble friend.

§ LORD KENNET
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, while this seems a very good kind of Committee, there are two questions which may arise in one's mind, the first being about security? Does the inquiry run any risk of being told that it cannot be given certain facts because of reasons of security or national interests? Secondly, one wonders why it is that the Committee is to report to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Defence, rather than to the noble Lord and the Secretary of State for the Environment jointly, or indeed to the Government as a whole.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, to take the second question first, the Committee is reporting to me because I set it 213 up; and it is inquiring into lands of the Ministry of Defence and of the Ministry of Aviation Supply so it will also report to the Minister of Aviation Supply. I am quite honest about this; the noble Lord need not think that I have any particular axe to grind. My axe to grind is the same as his: we must be rational about this and realise that it we are to have forces to train we must also have somewhere to train them, as the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has said.
With regard to the point raised by the noble Lord on the security aspect, there is no question about that. All the facts will be available to the Committee.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, will it be clearly understood that the Report will be published, so that we may express an opinion about the conclusions?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I should not like to give an undertaking that the whole Report will be published. Certainly we shall consider it, but there may be elements in it which affect security and which one might like to consider before making such a declaration.

§ LORD SHACKLETON
My Lords, since the Question asked by my noble friend Lord Shinwell, seems to have been exceptionally fruitful in relation to the length of the reply given by the noble Lord in making major policy Statements, I wonder whether he is giving consideration to having those replies repeated in another place?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, as a matter of fact, by some extraordinary coincidence there is a Question in another place in exactly the same terms as that put down by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell. I must apologise for the length of the Answer, but it seemed to me that if it were possible to give an answer to this matter by way of a reply to a Question rather than by making a Statement, it might perhaps take up less of your Lordships' time and not interrupt our debates quite so often.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, do I understand this to be an investigation into all land which is at present being used for training purposes?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
Yes, my Lords. The only land excluded is 214 developed land, such as barracks, and so on, which would add a great deal to the work of the Committee, and I do not think it would be fruitful in the terms in which we are thinking of this subject.

§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER
My Lords, is it contemplated that this Committee will take evidence from such bodies as the Countryside Commission?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
Yes, indeed, my Lords. This again is a matter for my noble friend, but I imagine that he would be prepared to take evidence from anybody who is prepared to appear before the Committee.

§ LORD MAELOR
My Lords, could the Minister arrange for this Committee to visit Bardsey Island?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I will see that my noble friend is informed where it is.