§ 4.25 p.m.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, this may be a convenient moment for me to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster on the Common Market discussions with Caribbean Governments. The Statement is as follows:
§ "With your permission, Mr. Speaker, and that of the House, I should like to make a Statement about my visit to the Commonwealth 842 countries of the Caribbean, from which I returned yesterday.
§ "At the invitation of the Governments concerned, I visited Jamaica, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago, and Barbados. In each I met the Prime Minister and Ministers concerned with our negotiations for entry into the European Economic Community. I also visited St. Lucia, where I met Premiers and representatives of each of the West Indies Associated States.
§ "I was particularly glad to have the opportunity also of seeing representatives of trade unions as well as employers, and representatives of Opposition Parties as well as Ministers and officials. In this way I was able to build up a more comprehensive idea of the many problems involved from different points of view. I am most grateful to all who made this possible, and above all to the Governments who were my hosts.
§ "Our discussions covered three main problems: sugar, the future relationship which the independent Commonwealth Governments may have with the Community, and the corresponding relationship of the West Indies Associated States, for whose external affairs we remain responsible.
§ "First, sugar. From the very beginning of the negotiations, we have identified the need for access for sugar from the developing Commonwealth countries to an enlarged Community as one of the three major problems of the negotiations.
§ "I explained that we had put in proposals on this point to the Community, but had not yet received the Community's reply. I said that what indications we had had of the Commission's thinking showed that those concerned fully understood the problem and were anxious to find a solution which would permit continuity of access under a new sugar régime applicable to the enlarged Community as a whole.
§ "So far as the Commonwealth Caribbean Governments and sugar producers are concerned, the principal problem is to be able to plan production ahead with a similar degree of assurance to that which they now enjoy 843 under the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement. For this they require what the Jamaican Minister of Trade and Industry described to me as 'bankable' assurances; in other words, assurances which would persuade bank managers to provide the credits necessary for the roll-on of sugar production. Cane sugar production, unlike beet sugar production, has, of course, to be planned a number of years in advance.
§ "A number of anxieties were expressed to me but nearly all turned on this point.
§ "I was particularly impressed by the social aspects of the problem. The economies of the countries concerned are dependent upon sugar in varying degrees, but restriction or dislocation of the market would severely affect them all, and in some would lead to serious consequences in human as well as economic terms.
§ "Similar considerations of course apply to the other developing members of the Commonwealth whose economies are dependent upon sugar, notably Mauritius and Fiji.
§ "Next I turn to the question of the future relationship between the independent Commonwealth Caribbean countries and an enlarged Community. There seems to have been a good deal of misunderstanding on this point, which I hope I was able to clear up.
§ "The problem is this: as the House will know, the Community has already reaffirmed the offer contained in its 1963 Declaration of Intent to the Commonwealth African countries. This offer in no way commits the Governments concerned. But it will enable them to choose whether they wish to have a Yaoundé-type of association with the enlarged Community, or a looser form of association, or a simple trading agreement.
§ "The Community has not yet renewed this offer to the Commonwealth Caribbean countries, but I very much hope it will do so soon.
§ "The problem of the Commonwealth Caribbean is not simply one of sugar. The countries concerned need continuing access to the British market and ultimately to the European one for such other tropical products as bananas, 844 citrus fruits and rum. Without such access—especially for bananas—grave damage would be done to the economies concerned. These developing countries, who have for centuries been dependent on the British market, need arrangements, such as association would provide, which would give them the same sort of treatment now given to other developing countries associated with the Community.
§ "Lastly I come to the future relationship of the West Indies Associated States with an enlarged Community. I am glad to say that at the meeting of Deputies in Brussels on the 10th of February, the Community lifted its reserve on the offer of association under Part IV of the Treaty of Rome to those territories, other than Gibraltar and Hong Kong, for whose external relations we remain responsible. This will ensure that their interests will be safeguarded.
§ "Some concern was expressed to me lest there should be any difference in the positions of the various members of CARIFTA, the Commonwealth Caribbean Free Trade Area, which includes both dependent and independent countries. I said that I hope that with an offer of association to them all, a common CARIFTA position might be elaborated. Without such an offer to the independent countries, the position would of course be more complicated. In any case we shall do our utmost to protect the interests of the West Indies Associated States, and give them all the help and advice they may require.
§ "I have spoken to-day of serious problems which could affect the success of the negotiations. I have no doubt that solutions can be found to all of them. So far as the Commonwealth Caribbean is concerned, the most dangerous element in the situation is uncertainty. I hope this may be cleared up very soon."
§ My Lords, that concludes the Statement.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, we on this side of the House welcome that Statement. We are glad that a new relationship of association of the Associated States with E.E.C. has been met. I am particularly glad that the Chancellor of 845 the Exchequer has been to the Caribbean. He now understands that it is not a statistical problem but a very human problem, in which the lives and welfare of many hundreds of thousands of people are deeply involved; and he understands also the political consequences if proper and satisfactory arrangements are not arrived at. I would ask the noble Earl only one question. May we have an assurance that the Government, in their negotiations in terms of sugar, bananas and citrus—and particularly bananas and sugar—are negotiating not only for a continuing access but for the quantities that are now imported into this country under the various agreements to continue, so that there can be long-term planning in the Caribbean countries?
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, we on these Benches are also glad to note that Mr. Rippon apparently thinks that the E.E.C. fully understand the necessity of a new sugar régime involving the access of sugar from Commonwealth countries to an enlarged Community. I would associate myself with what the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, has said: that it should be suitable access, if only for the reason that it is difficult to see how we could sign the Treaty of Rome unless some kind of new régime is forthcoming. We note, too, that Mr. Rippon is also hopeful that the Community will extend the offer it has made to Commonwealth African countries to Commonwealth Caribbean countries. Surely, in logic it could hardly be otherwise. But if this offer is made, will it not in itself ensure the continuance of the West Indies market for bananas, citrus fruit and rum? I asked that; but I suppose the answer is, "Yes". I am not certain that I have understood the position. We trust that the Community will prove itself reasonable also on this aspect.
§ BARONESS GAITSKELLMy Lords, we have had an interesting lecture on the situation about sugar; but I should really like to ask the Minister what is the outcome. What has been decided? What have they got out of it? What real assurance have the Caribbean countries got about all this?
§ LORD ROYLEMy Lords, I wonder whether I may support my noble friend in that direction. The noble Earl has said that the Government will seek to 846 protect the interests of the West Indies in these matters. What exactly does that mean? How will they protect the interests of the West Indies in their negotiations on the Common Market?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, several points have arisen. I should like first to thank the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, for his welcome of this Statement. As he said, this is a human problem; and, as he well knows, it is also very complicated. This matter is under discussion and under negotiation. The noble Lord asks me for a specific assurance that the quantities will be the same as are now being brought into the country. I could not give an unqualified assurance of that, because this matter is under negotiation. But the fact that the noble Lord has said what he has said will obviously be taken into account by my right honourable friend.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, all that I asked for was an assurance that this is the basis on which Her Majesty's Government are negotiating.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government are negotiating on the whole basis of the problems of Caribbean countries—which includes the quantities which are at the moment imported into this country.
I think it was the noble Baroness, Lady Gaitskell, who asked what the Caribbean countries had got out of this. As yet, nobody has got anything. What my right honourable friend did was to go to the Caribbean to see the representatives of the trade unions and of Government, to find out the problem, to explain to them the situation as he sees it and to assure them that in these negotiations—which are bound to be extraordinarily complex and which, as was mentioned in the Statement, are one of the three vital points of negotiation in the Common Market issue—their points will be taken into account and so far as possible safeguarded.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the Common Market will want to seek an outset for their sugar beet industry? Is it expected that we shall be able to get the same quantities into this country as under a Commonwealth Sugar Agreement, in the light of that economic fact of the Common Market?
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, before the noble Earl replies, would he assure the House that Her Majesty's Government are fully seized of the fact that the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement has brought stability to the sugar interests that they had not enjoyed previously when there were the wildest fluctuations of price? Therefore, access by itself is not enough, and a quantitative agreement of some kind over a long period, as the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said, is essential.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, the noble Baroness is perfectly correct in that respect. As she doubtless knows, the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement is one of the most complicated agreements. It is precisely because it is complicated that some way has to be found of fixing it into the Common Market agreements.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, will the noble Earl answer my question?
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, I asked whether it was a fact that if the offer which the Community has already made to the Commonwealth African countries is extended to the Commonwealth Caribbean countries, that will automatically ensure the continued export of suitable quantities of bananas, rum and so on. Is that a fact or not?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, if the offer made to the African countries is made to the Caribbean countries, it is then up to the Caribbean countries to decide whether to accept the offer of either a Youandé type of association, or a looser association, or a trade agreement. It is up to them to decide which they wish to accept.
§ LORD GLADWYNThey would then have the chance, if they so desired, to enter into some kind of association which would permit them to export what they now export to England in the way of rum and bananas. Is that not so?
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, they will have the opportunity of accepting this Youandé type of association which has certain preferences into the Common Market and which also has certain reverse preferences.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, it would certainly not give the guarantees which these countries now have under the Commonwealth Sugar Agreement.