§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, arising from the recent meeting between the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, any measures are intended other than the presence of British Forces to deal with disorder and outbreaks of violence in the Six Counties.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, the Northern Ireland Government are continuing their efforts to remove the underlying causes of the social and economic problems of Northern Ireland through their wide-ranging reform programme and their measures to attract new industry to the Province. All this will be successful only if peace and order are maintained.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, may I, in the circumstances, ask the noble Lord a series of brief supplementary questions? The first is this: what were these two right honourable gentlemen talking about? What was the purpose of the visit of the Premier of Northern Ireland to the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom? What were they talking about? Was it merely a courtesy visit, 589 or for the purpose of having a cup of tea or a drink? I think that question ought to be answered: we ought to know what these two gentlemen were talking about. Secondly, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that only a small, indeed insignificant, minority of people in the Six Counties are responsible for these acts of violence; and, furthermore, that there is a vast reservoir of good will among ordinary Roman Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland whose efforts at good will and desire for peace should be harnessed for the purpose of creating a new sentiment in Northern Ireland? Is he also aware that I am not anxious to bring the troops away from Northern Ireland? They are there, and they are doing a very good job. Perhaps they ought not to have gone, because that is not their role; but in the circumstances—
§ LORD SHINWELLThese are questions, and very important questions. In the circumstances, on the death of two young soldiers, which we all deplore, is it not desirable that some new method should be devised in order to bring this trouble to an end? I do not mean by interfering—
§ LORD SHINWELLIs the noble Lord aware that I do not mean by interfering with the Constitution of Northern Ireland, nor am I opposing partition—nothing of the sort. I do not mean that by political methods—
§ LORD SHINWELLBut some method should be devised in order to bring this trouble to an end. And is it not time that this complacency on the part of the United Kingdom Government came to an end?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, we all appreciate the noble Lord's concern with this subject, and I will try to answer a little more briefly some of the points he raised. The Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland met at Chequers over the week-end. They discussed the current situation in Northern Ireland and the measures necessary to meet it. The noble Lord is quite right 590 when he says that the current phase of shootings and violence in the streets is a new development. These are not the same as the large-scale sectarian riots that used to occur, and there has been a noticeable improvement in the lessening of sectarian tension. The crowds are much smaller, and the present violence is being committed by extremists who are small in number but who, at the same time, we must recognise, are a very dangerous group of men. We can agree with what the noble Lord said about the moderates in both communities and the need to try to build on the good will which exists. We would also underline what he said with regard to the fortitude and the patience with which the Armed Forces are carrying out their duties.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is it not obvious that the Army is going to be there for a very long time and that this involves a great deal of courage on the part of the troops and also entails a great deal of expenditure? May I put a further question to the noble Lord, if he can answer it? Why are there rude noises on the opposite Benches when I am asking a quite reasonable question? Are Members there trying to provoke me? Because if they are, I may retaliate.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, British troops are in Northern Ireland at the request of the Northern Ireland Government to aid the civil power, and they will remain so long as that purpose is called for. It is not for me to comment on the second point raised by the noble Lord.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, while I agree with troops being in Northern Ireland, can the noble Lord assure me that we shall not get manœuvred into the position in which we were in 1919, when there were troops who were regarded as Black and Tans?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, to turn back to the past troubles of Northern Ireland or to speculate on the future is not very profitable. The Question referred to the immediate situation, and that is what I have dealt with in my answers.
LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMy Lords, may I ask one question? Is any recompense paid to individuals who 591 supply information concerning arms dumps or concealed weapons in Northern Ireland?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I cannot answer that question without notice, but I will send the answer to the noble Lord.