HL Deb 11 February 1971 vol 315 cc244-7
LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what evidence is available on the intervention of members of the I.R.A. in Ulster and whether a statement can be made on the situation.]

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I cannot of course reveal the nature of the evidence, but there can be no doubt that extremist elements of the I.R.A. have been involved in—indeed, have fomented—the recent disturbances.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it would not be wise to have a consultation through the usual diplomatic channels with Jack Lynch, the Prime Minister of Southern Ireland, in order to ascertain whether he can provide any information about these elements in Northern Ireland that are operating in this detestable fashion? Has the noble Lord noted that the Prime Minister of Southern Ireland has gone out of his way to condemn these elements—and rightly so; and would it not be worth while to ask him, in the fashion that is familiar to Ministers engaged in diplomatic conversations, whether there is any information available which would assist the United Kingdom forces in Northern Ireland to deal with the situation more adequately?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, as usual, the noble Lord has made a very interesting and constructive suggestion, but I do not think he should assume that the Foreign Secretary is totally ignorant of diplomatic procedures.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, with great respect to the noble Lord, is he aware that I have long experience of Foreign Secretaries—much longer, extensively and intensively, than he has? I doubt very much whether the Foreign Secretary, even the present Foreign Secretary, has the acuteness and adroitness, and even ruthlessness, to tackle the problem in the manner I have suggested without pressure being exerted on him.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord will have an even longer acquaintance of this Foreign Secretary.

LORD RATHCAVAN

My Lords, in view of the very serious situation now in Belfast, might it not be worth while to consider the internment of leading members of the I.R.A., as was done, within my recollection, some twenty or so years ago, when the I.R.A. leaders were interned on a ship in Belfast Lough?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, that, of course, is primarily a matter for the Government of Northern Ireland, but no doubt before such a step was taken there would be consultation with Her Majesty's Government.

BARONESS BACON

My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether or not there is any truth in the allegation which has been made that members of the I.R.A. have been paying schoolchildren to engage in violence against our troops? Can he further say whether or not the Government at Stormont have taken any steps, particularly through schools and teachers, to try to keep the children off the streets?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I do not know specifically, but I think I am right in saying (I speak subject to correction, because this is rather different from the Question on the Order Paper) that the Northern Ireland Government have made parents responsible if their children are found rioting; and they themselves get into trouble and are fined. I may be wrong, and, as I say, I speak subject to correction. So far as I know, there is no evidence that children are being paid, but if there were we should have to deal with it very strongly.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he has noted that the Question asks, "whether a statement can be made on the situation" in Ulster? Arising from that, may I ask, in view of the fact that this unhappy conflict has gone on now for nearly two years, whether it is not time that we began to deal with the basic causes of the conflict, rather than merely maintaining the confrontation of forces? Would Her Majesty's Government turn their mind in that direction?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, I will let the noble Lord into a secret. I had an argument with my Department about what exactly the Question meant—whether it was to ask for a statement about the situation in Northern Ireland, or whether the noble Lord was asking for a statement on intervention by members of the I.R.A. I came to the conclusion that Le was asking for the latter. If the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, would like to put down a rather wider Question I should be happy to answer him.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord accusing me of having confused him because of the nature of my Question? Was my Question not perfectly explicit? I asked merely about the I.R.A., and whether the Government had any evidence to support the contention that they were adopting certain unworthy tactics, and whether he would make a statement. He has not made any statement at all. All he has done is to try to fob me off with evasions and subterfuges. He can therefore be assured that I shall return to the subject before very long.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, perhaps, to avoid any further confusion about his Questions, the noble Lord will in future take me into consultation about the drafting.

LORD KILBRACKEN

My Lords, while not underestimating the responsibility of the I.R.A. for the present violence in Northern Ireland, which I deplore, may I ask the noble Lord whether he does not agree that it is extremist organisations on both sides, including, in particular, the Ulster Volunteer Force, that contribute to this violence, and that they should bear at least some part of the responsibility?

LORD CARRINGTON

Here again, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell (I speak subject to what he says), was referring to the disturbances of the last ten days or so. I do not think that these were due to extremist Protestants; I think they were due to the extremist elements of the I.R.A.

LORD KILBRACKEN

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the blowing up of the statue of Wolfe Tone in Dublin was most unlikely to have been carried out by the I.R.A., even though Wolfe Tone was a Protestant; and that the removal of a tricolour flag from the funeral carriage passing through the centre of Belfast was also most unlikely to have been done by a Catholic?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, the statue was in Dublin; the Question relates to I.R.A. activities in Ulster.