§ 2.39 p.m.
§ LORD BURTONMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government, in view of the withdrawal of the grant to rabbit clearance societies, what statutory powers within the Pest Act 1954 and the Agriculture (Scotland) Act 1948 will be retained to control rabbits.]
4§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, SCOTTISH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)My Lords, rabbit clearance grants are payable under an enabling power given to the Agricultural Ministers by Section 3 of the Pests Act 1954. Legislation is not therefore necessary to carry out the Government's decision to withdraw the grants. The statutory powers under the Acts of 1954 and 1948 and the Orders made under them will remain, so that occupiers will continue to be required to control rabbits on their land, and the Agricultural Ministers will continue to have powers to ensure that this is done.
§ LORD BURTONMy Lords, in view of the fact that the pre-myxomatosis damage carried out by rabbits amounted in Scotland to several million pounds, and over the whole country was estimated at £50 million, what steps do the Government intend to take to see that we do not return to that position?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the present position is that while before myxomatosis the damage done in Scotland amounted to about £5 million to £7 million, it is now only about £500,000. One would nevertheless hope that after receiving grants for 16 years these rabbit clearance societies would remain in being, because farmers must realise that it is in their interests to keep the rabbit population down.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the Government have fully considered that while some owners of big arable farms would be quite willing to double their subscriptions to the societies the owners of smaller and marginal farms, whose income is usually less than that of the lowest paid agricultural worker, cannot do so? Would it not be a tragedy if rabbit damage to crops and grass in Scotland, which has been almost eliminated in the past 15 years, should now begin all over again?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I quite agree that it would be a tragedy if the rabbits were to increase in very large numbers again. While I understand perfectly the question of the noble Earl, I would point out that 5 the small farmers have been working very successfully together in co-operatives, and I should have thought that they would still be able to do so.
§ LORD HOYMy Lords, can the noble Baroness tell us why the grants, which were so important under a Labour Government, are unimportant now that we have a Tory Government?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, the reason is that these grants have been given for about 16 years, and it is felt that farmers, whether large or small, realise that it is in their interest to control these pests. It was one of the Election pledges of the Tory Government to try to reduce expenditure in every Department.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Baroness mean that rabbits are less productive under a Tory Government?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am not yet aware of that.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she is aware that the Government are taking a very big risk by withdrawing these grants in one step rather than tapering them off? Is the noble Baroness further aware that while she repeats that farmers are responsible for eliminating the pests on their land, and refers to the statutory powers, it was not in the main the farmers who were responsible for the spread of rabbits but the owners of building sites and such derelict areas as railway embankments, which are centres for breeding rabbits, where it was impossible to control them and extremely difficult for the agricultural Ministers to mount successful prosecutions against the owners of the land?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, this particular problem will not change, because powers are still there for the agricultural Ministers to ensure that occupiers of land will in fact be responsible for clearing their land of rabbits.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEDoes that mean, my Lords, that the Government can, under the Act, renew these grants again in a year or two if it should appear then to be necessary?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords, that is so, although at the present moment we have no intention of doing so.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, is it the Government's intention to promote private enterprise in all manners, including by the rabbits?
§ LORD MONK BRETTONMy Lords, may I ask: my noble friend whether it is intended to step up the use of procedures for inspection and enforcement against those who harbour rabbits, and to make this procedure more stringent than it has been?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVEEMy Lords, the powers are all there. I agree that there are difficulties in enforcement, but there is every intention on the part of both agricultural Ministers to make clear to owners of occupied land what their responsibilities are under the Act.
§ LORD BURTONMy Lords, I wonder whether the noble Baroness would ask her officials if they consider that the powers are sufficient, because I think she would find that those who have to enforce them consider them insufficient. Furthermore, is she aware that the main reason rabbit clearance societies were not effective was that the present powers were inadequate and no compulsion could be nut on them to "blackleg" the farmer and landowner who refused to co-operate, unlike the compulsory powers which exist for marketing boards.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I realise that there is some difficulty in that a farmer can do a certain amount of work in controlling his rabbits without entirely eliminating them and is not therefore subject to the penalty enforcement. But I have not been advised that the powers are insufficient.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, will the noble Baroness tell her right honourable friend the number of questions that have been asked in this House? Will she tell him that both sides of the House believe that this is a false economy, and would he look at the matter again?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I could not undertake to do that because this is a 7 decision that was taken after careful thought, as indeed are all decisions taken by Her Majesty's Government.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness saying that she is not prepared to do as my noble friend asked and inform her right honourable friend of the feeling in this House? Are all decisions of this Government always going to be immutable?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, perhaps I misunderstood the noble Lord. I thought he said: would I ask that this question be reconsidered? I said I did not think I could do so at this time. So far as the opinion of the whole House is concerned, I should find it difficult to assess the opinion of your Lordships' House without a good deal more consideration.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that it is very unusual for any noble Lord speaking from the Government Front Bench not to undertake to convey feelings expressed in all quarters of the House on a matter? May I again ask her whether she will convey this feeling to her right honourable friend?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am always ready to convey feelings, but I was asked a specific question, whether I would ask for the matter to be reconsidered, and I know that that is not a fruitful question at this moment.
EARL WALDEGRAVEMy Lords, when the noble Baroness conveys feeling to her right honourable friend, will she please remember to convey that not everybody feels as some of her hostile questioners have, and that many noble Lords here believe that farmers are learning to stand on their own feet and would prefer to do so.
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I must thank the noble Earl for coming to my assistance, and also for justifying my feeling that it was difficult to assess the whole opinion of your Lordships' House.
§ LORD BALERNOMy Lords, is the Minister aware that the modern rabbit is not so inclined to burrow as his ancestor was, and that therefore he is 8 very much more easily dealt with than the rabbit of twenty years ago?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am grateful for that personal knowledge.
§ LORD BURTONMy Lords, if the noble Baroness feels that the Government are not prepared to reintroduce the grant, will she at least look at the powers available at the moment for compulsion and making people control their pests, and see whether these should not be improved?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEYes, my Lords; I will certainly look at the powers, although I cannot give any undertaking that it will be possible to improve them.