HL Deb 09 February 1971 vol 315 cc14-8

2.59 p.m.

THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Drumalbyn.)

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, this is the Bill to facilitate the transfer of business from one organisation to another. During the earlier stages of the Bill I asked the noble Lord whether he could give an undertaking that the British Air Corporations would not be asked to make further concessions of business to any other organisation. The noble Lord was unable on that occasion to give me any undertaking. He said in fact that there was still the remainder of the package to announce. What I therefore now ask him is when the remainder of that package will be announced. I am sure he understands as well as any of us that it is essential to end the uncertainty in this matter. It really is not fair on the Air Corporations to leave them in any doubt as to what sector of their business will be theirs next week or the week after, and I therefore ask, before we give this Bill a Third Reading, if we are going to give it a Third Reading, whether he will say when this period of uncertainty is to be ended.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I quite agree with the noble Lord that it is extremely important to end the period of uncertainty, which is bound to exist, as soon as possible. Unfortunately, I am not able to give a firm date on which we shall announce the remainder of the package. All I can say is that it is in everybody's interest that it should be announced as soon as possible. I hope that the House will be content with that assurance.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is it not a little surprising that the Bill comes before us on Third Reading without our having full knowledge of what is in it? With most Bills, if the contents are not included in the Bill itself they are in the Schedule. Here we are asked to give a Third Reading to a Bill without even knowing what is in it. This seems the most astonishing arrangement. It is an enabling Bill to allow something to be done without any statement of what it is. I have heard Members on the other side and in another place say in the past that this is a peculiar way of conducting business; that, while other Governments might do it, they would never do it. Is it not time that they looked at their own past remarks and made sure that no Bill came before us in this condition?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I think the noble Viscount is under some misapprehension. What we are doing is to declare what the law is. It is not a question of what is in the Bill; the Bill merely declares what the law is. There is nothing behind it, in the sense that there is a package involved in the Bill. There is, of course, the prospect that some of the routes at present operated by the national Air Corporations will be transferred. What this Bill does is to declare that it is possible for these routes to be taken away so far as the Air Corporations are concerned and for licences to be given to B.U.A./Caledonian to operate them. This is not in the Bill. The Bill declares that the existing law will already permit this to be done.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that it is the responsibility of any Minister who is responsible for a Bill going through the House to give some form of view as to what the Bill really entails, now that it has gone through Committee and is submitted for Third Reading?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord has been present throughout the debates on this Bill. The point here is that it was recognised that in order to get this new company, B.U.A./Caledonian, off the ground it would be necessary to transfer routes to the value of a certain amount from the Air Corporations to B.U.A./Caledonian. That amount has been stated at not exceeding 2½ to 3 per cent. of the total route revenue of B.O.A.C. The point that the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, asked about was the exact composition of routes to be transferred. We know what is involved financially and quantitatively. What is not yet certain is what the exact composition of the routes is to be.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, the Minister will agree that I have obtained from him what I requested. He is an old Parliamentarian, like myself, coming from another place. We have got from him to-day something that he was not prepared to give in the first place; he has explained the reason for the Third Reading and what is in the Bill.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I am not sure whether we are not out of order; this is not a Committee stage but a Third Reading. I would make one correction to what the noble Lord, Lord Drumalbyn, has said, and ask one further question. I have not asked to-day what is the exact composition of this package. All I have asked is: when shall we know the remainder of the package, so that the uncertainty can end? The noble Lord is unable to give the answer, which is really important. I now ask a further question: can he give an undertaking that the open-ended powers in this Bill will lapse or be subsumed when the promised new aviation legislation comes before the House?

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, certainly it will be for the House to decide what the powers of the new Civil Aviation Authority will be, and it would be quite wrong for me to predict exactly what they should be. All I can do is to repeat what I have said before: that it is not the intention that these powers should be used again. It is not the intention that these powers should be used again in this way once they have been used for the package. It has happened in the past, and it may be necessary in the future, that the powers are used where, for one reason or another, a route is abandoned. In such a case it is necessary to use the powers in order immediately to exempt whoever wants to operate that route from the necessity of getting a licence from the Air Transport Licensing Board; the new operator is then able to operate the route without such a licence. I have given the assurances that the noble Lord wants: that the Government will not delay longer than necessary the announcement of this package; and, secondly, that it is not intended to use these powers again in this way. May I say one other thing to the noble Lord, Lord Slater? Throughout the passage of this Bill in both Houses the basis on which we have been operating has been the Statement that was made on August 3 last, which made clear the intention of the Government in this respect.

On Question, Bill read 3a.

LORD DRUMALBYN

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill do now pass.

Resolved in the affirmative, and Bill passed accordingly.

Moved, That the Bill do now pass.—(Lord Drunialbyn.)

3.10 p.m.

On Question, Whether the Bill shall now pass?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 106; Not-Contents, 55.

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L. Ferrers, E. O'Neill of the Maine, L.
Aberdeen and Temair, M. Fortescue, E. Rankeillour, L.
Ailwyn, L. Goschen, V. [Teller.] Reigate, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E. Gray, L. Robbins, L.
Alport, L. Grenfell, L. Robertson of Oakridge, L.
Ampthill, L. Gridley, L. Rockley, L.
Ashbourne, L. Grimston of Westbury, L. Rowallan, L.
Auckland, L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.) Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.
Balerno, L. Sackville, L.
Balfour, E. Hanworth, V. St. Aldwyn, E.
Berkeley, Bs. Hawke, L. St. Helens, L.
Bethell, L. Headford, M. St. Just, L.
Boothby, L. Helsby, L. Salisbury, M.
Bourne, L. Hood, V. Sandford, L.
Brecon, L. Howard of Glossop, L. Sandys, L.
Brock, L. Howe, E. Shannon, E.
Brooke of Cumnor, L. Hylton-Foster, Bs. Sinclair of Cleeve, L.
Brooke of Ystradfellte, Bs. Ilford, L. Skelmersdale, L.
Burton, L. Inglewood, L. Stonehaven, V.
Cawley, L. Ironside, L. Strang, L.
Clwyd, L. Jellicoe, E. (L. Privy Seal.) Strange of Knokin, Bs.
Conesford, L. Killearn, L. Strathclyde, L.
Cork and Orrery, E. Kilmany, L. Sudeley, L.
Craigavon, V. Kinnoull, E. Swinton, E.
Crathorne, L. Lincoln, L. Bp. Tenby, V.
Cromartie, E. Lindsey and Abingdon, E. Teynham, L.
Daventry, V. Loudoun, C. Thorneycroft, L.
Denham, L. [Teller.] Lucas of Chilworth, L. Trefgarne, L.
Derwent, L. MacAndrew, L. Trevelyan, L.
Donoughmore, E. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Tweedsmuir, L.
Drumalbyn, L. Merrivale, L. Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, Bs.
Dundee, E. Milverton, L. Vivian, L.
Effingham, E. Monk Bretton, L. Waldegrave, E.
Elliot of Harwood, Bs. Mowbray and Stourton, L. Windlesham, L.
Emmet of Amberley, Bs. Northchurch, Bs. Wolverton, L.
Essex, E. Nugent of Guildford, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Arwyn, L. Hughes, L. Serota, Bs.
Beswick, L. [Teller.] Jacques, L. Shepherd, L.
Blackett, L. Janner, L. Shinwell, L.
Brockway, L. kennet, L. Slater, L.
Brown, L. Kilbracken, L. Snow, L.
Buckinghamshire, E. Leatherland, L. Soper, L.
Burton of Coventry, Bs. Lindgren, L. Sorensen, L.
Champion, L. Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, Bs, [Teller.] Stocks, Bs.
Constantine, L. Stonham, L.
Cooper of Stockton Heath, L. McLeavy, L. Stow Hill, L.
Crook, L. Moyle, L. Summerskill, Bs.
Douglass of Cleveland, L. Nunburnholme, L. Taylor of Mansfield, L.
Faringdon, L. Pargiter, L. Wells-Pestell, L.
Geddes of Epsom, L. Peddie, L. White, Bs.
Greenwood of Rossendale, L. Popplewell, L. Williamson, L.
Henderson, L. Raglan, L. Willis, L.
Heycock, L. Royle, L. Wright of Ashton under Lyne, L.
Hilton of Upton, L. Rusholme, L.
Hoy, L. St. Davids, V. Wynne-Jones, L.