NORTHERN IRELAND (Hansard, 4 February 1971)

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)
My Lords, there is a continuous process of reviewing tactics and developing new equipment, and improved measures will flow from these. Additionally, recruitment to the Ulster Defence Regiment will now be directed to the quickest possible build-up to a force of 6.000 men; and arrangements for consultation and coordination between the Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary will be further developed to the fullest extent that manpower permits.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether it is not obvious by this time that, despite the fortitude and bravery of our troops in Ulster, the Army have only been able partially to contain the situation? Why should our troops be continuously subjected to the kind of pressure which has resulted in violence and disorder? May I further ask the noble Lord whether the time has not arrived when Her Majesty's Government should convene a conference representative of all the interests in Ulster, including the clergy, members of the Government and other interests, in order to consider whether some solution can be found other than the use of force on either side?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, with regard to the last question put by the noble Lord, I will of course pass on his observations to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary whose concern the subject is. With regard to what the noble Lord said about the Army, I think that your Lordships on all sides of the House will agree with what he said. I had the opportunity of going last week to Northern Ireland, and I can tell your Lordships that I was amazed at the forbearance and restraint which the Army shows in Northern Ireland. I, like the noble Lord, feel that it is a terrible thing that the Army should be asked to do this sort of work in this country.
The fact is that until last night the situation in Northern Ireland had greatly improved, and there was, I think, a hope that we might be able to rout out the wrongdoers and troublemakers; and I still hope that this is true. But I think I must tell your Lordships that last night in Belfast was very bad, and as a result I have authorised the "spearhead" battalion and an armoured car squadron to go there this evening.

§ LORD SHINWELL
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether there is effective collaboration between our troops in Ulster and the Royal Ulster Constabulary; and if the collaboration is satisfactory, what is the effect?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, this of course is one of the aspects of the situation that we are always trying to improve. When I was there last week, I thought that the collaboration between the Army and the police was very good. It is not easy in the circumstances, because sometimes the police are there and sometimes the Army are there. But I think the liaison is pretty good. The difficulty is the general situation, in which you have troublemakers and people intent on subversion: it is often very difficult to find them.

§ BARONESS STOCKS
My Lords, much of the trouble last night arose, I think, as a result of the searching of homes for arms in a certain district. That is a difficulty that is quite familiar to anyone who was in Cyprus during the troubles there. When homes are searched for arms, are only those homes searched which give the authorities reason to believe that they contain arms, or is 1357 there a sort of spot check down the street, including all homes?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right: there is nothing that causes more ill-feeling than these house-to-house searches; and one understands it perfectly well in the case of innocent people who have their houses searched. The General Officer Commanding has authority only to search houses in which he has reason to believe that arms can be found. If any wider searches are necessary, he has to get the authority from London.

§ BARONESS STOCKS
My Lords, they would not go down the street necessarily searching every house?

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, we on this side of the House wish to be associated with the tribute the noble Lord has paid to our troops in Northern Ireland. I wonder whether the noble Lord will consider, recognising that the task of the soldiers is always difficult in a civilian role, whether in carrying out searches of this sort it would be possible to have a small contingent of civil police from this country who would undertake that form of work in co-operation with the British Forces, and, if possible, relieve the British Forces from the vary difficult task of going into private homes.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I absolutely accept what the noble Lord says. Of course, as Secretary of State for Defence I should be only too glad if the troops were relieved of this unpleasant function. But the fact remains that if you are seeking arms in the houses of people who might be armed, you have to be careful not to send in unarmed police. There is also the fact—which is not a good thing either—that when you search for arms you inevitably have to root up floor boards, wainscoting and so on; otherwise you will not find the arms.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, the point that I was seeking to make was of course that the police are particularly trained in this type of work, whereas often the British Tommy is not.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, there may be something in that point, but I do not think that policemen in this 1358 country are, on the whole, trained for that work.

§ LORD SHINWELL
May I ask the noble Lord, arising out of my proposition about convening a conference under the auspices of Her Majesty's Government, whether, after he has consulted his right honourable friend the Home Secretary, he will advise your Lordships' House of the result?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I shall be very happy, if the noble Lord will put down a Question, to tell him what has happened.

§ LORD LEATHERLAND
My Lords, I always try to be helpful on occasions like this. Might it not have been unwise to stimulate and speed up recruiting to the Ulster Regiment to a total of 6,000? Many of the people likely to join that force will be inflamed partisans. The better type of patriot there will have joined when the original recruiting started.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, I do not think that is right. I do not think that the Ulster Defence Regiment consists of inflamed partisans. I am glad to say that about 15 per cent. of those who joined are Roman Catholics, so that the Regiment is not by any means confined to the Protestants. As the noble Lord will also know, the Ulster Defence Regiment does not deal with any civil peacekeeping in the streets. It guards important places and vital points.

§ LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK
My Lords, can my noble friend tell your Lordships which is the armoured car squadron that is authorised to depart this evening? Is it from the Royal Scots Greys?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
Yes, my Lords.

LORD HAWKE
My Lords, can my noble friend tell me what has been the result of the closing of pubs on Saturday nights—a practice which seemed to have been resorted to at one time but has now apparently been dropped?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, perhaps my noble friend will put down a Question on that point.

§ LORD PARGITER
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether or not, when troops are obliged to tear up floorboards, and so on, the places are reinstated when they discover that there is nothing hidden?

§ LORD CARRINGTON
My Lords, one hopes that they do as little damage as possible. But the point is not so much the damage that is done as the fact that people, quite understandably, do not like their belongings messed around. The last thing the troops want to do is to go and do that sort of job. But if there is information that arms are there, it is their duty to carry out a search. Stringent precautions are taken about the searches: officers are present and close watch is kept.