RURAL BUS SERVICES (Hansard, 2 February 1971)

§ LORD TEVIOT
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, this information is not available in quantified form. Bus operators generally are faced with a steadily declining number of passengers as car competition increases. Because of this, services become unremunerative and some have to be discontinued. A special problem arises in rural areas where operators are considering the withdrawal of a substantial number of unremunerative services. They have informed local authorities in advance so that the latter can consider what services are essential and whether they wish to assist them by rural bus grant. In that case the Government are normally prepared to meet half the local authorities' expenditure. It is open to smaller bus operators to apply for licences to run services, with or without grant, if the larger operators withdraw.

§ LORD TEVIOT
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for his reply, I would ask whether he agrees that a great deal of hardship will be caused—the public are being held over a barrel between the National Bus Company and other bus operators—in cases where the local authorities are not giving grants? I would also thank my noble friend for the assurance that the smaller bus companies could take over these routes, but could not the Government consider a three-months' period while they sort themselves out?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I am not clear if I have completely understood my noble friend. The Government have done everything they can to implement the 1968 Transport Act in this matter. Further, in November my right honourable friend circularised all local authorities, and he even went one step further; he told them that they could start giving grants to bus operators without reference to him. He cannot show more good will than that. The terms of reference which the local authorities have are very generous indeed.

§ LORD DAVIES OF LEEK
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware of the loneliness of some of these remote country districts in the Peak District and parts of Wales? In my Former constituency—I say this without any exaggeration—there are parts that are so remote from any hospital that the service is worse now than it was 40 years ago. I appreciate what the noble Lord's Government have done and what the Transport Act did. But it needs a concerted effort on behalf of all of us, even if it is only to get little mini-buses on these roads.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I appreciate that the land where leeks grow is very beautiful, and that we do not want too many buses to spoil it. Nevertheless, I must point out what the position is. The operating costs of a bus, I believe, are about 4s. per mile. Local authorities can give a grant, provided generally that the service meets half the operating costs. Half of 4s., as noble Lords can work out, is 2s. If the average passenger cost per mile is 6d. or 9d., then the operator needs only three or four passengers to recover his 2s., and it is then up to the local authority, the rural district or county, to make a grant.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, having regard to the fact that there are subsidies for these rural bus services, is it not remarkable that the Government do not know which services have been closed? Can the noble Lord say whether there are any cases where bus services provided to take the place of rail services have themselves been closed? If the bus companies close a service in such conditions it means that the rural parts affected are without any kind of public transport at all.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, this is going back to where I started. Local authorities can, if they think it necessary, give a grant to retain or restart a service. They can help any services. It is for the local authorities, rural district or county, to institute this help; they do not have to refer to the Government.

§ LORD STONHAM
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that it is the bus services that have been closed in which 1119 people are interested? The public want services that they can use.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, it is up to any local authority, if necessary, to ask a local operator to start a service. They can give a grant.

§ LORD POPPLEWELL
My Lords, would the noble Lord agree that that is not an effective policy? There could be a small village, with a small rateable value, which has a long mileage in that area. For the local authority to attempt to subsidise a bus service in that area would impose a staggering rate that very few ratepayers would be prepared to meet, even with a desire for additional transport.

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, with the fuel grant, the capital grant towards new buses and the rural bus grant, the position, I think is not too had. Normally, I assume, the county and the rural district together pay half of the grant—that is, a quarter for each authority—and the Government pay the other half. You only need to have three or four people using a bus regularly per mile and the authorities are not burdened unduly heavily. The local authorities' contribution, as the noble Lord knows, is also eligible for rate support grant.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, now that the noble Lords opposite have had eight months to sort themselves out, and in view of the wide concern not only in Wales and other rural districts, but also, and particularly, in South-East England, where train services have disappeared and bus services are now under considerable suspicion, I wonder whether the noble Earl, Lord St. Aldwyn, could be persuaded by the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, and the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, who previously showed great interest in this matter, to have an early debate on this subject?

EARL ST. ALDWYN
My Lords, if the noble Lord wishes to debate this matter there are certain Wednesdays when he is at absolute liberty to put down a Motion.

§ LORD SHEPHERD
My Lords, I was inviting the noble Lord's friend.

LORD HAWKE
My Lords, could my noble friend confirm, or otherwise, that 1120 where the railways withdrew a service on the understanding that they would start a bus service they have an obligation to keep that bus service going, notwithstanding the number of passengers carried?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, where guarantees have been given it has always been clear that services will not be withdrawn without due consultation with all the parties interested.

§ LORD TEVIOT
My Lords, would not my noble friend agree that discontinuing bus services will cause further serious depopulation of rural areas?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I keep trying to explain to your Lordships that the Government are not going to discontinue any bus services. The National Bus Company have a duty to break even. If they find that they are not breaking even, they can give notice that they will close a service. If the local authorities think that the service is useful and necessary to their constituents, they will give a grant; and my noble friend, in his generosity, meets half of it.

§ LORD TEVIOT
My Lords, I think my noble friend misunderstood me. What I was asking was whether the withdrawal of these services will not mean a further serious depopulation of the areas affected, simply because people cannot get to work, do their shopping, or what-have-you?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, if the local authorities think that a service is necessary they will support it through this grant, and the service will not be withdrawn. A bus company merely gives notice of withdrawal. If people locally think a service useful they will subsidise it, and my noble friend will then subsidise the council; and the service will go on.

§ LORD SLATER
My Lords, it is unfortunate when the main operators of these particular services in rural areas, running right up and down the country, can make their profits on the main services but are not prepared to carry the extra cost in regard to running services in the rural areas. It is unfortunate that we should now be talking about local authorities subsidising small operators for 1121 having to run within these rural areas, and ought not the Government to give every consideration to this aspect?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I do not accept that the bus companies are behaving in this way at all.

§ LORD LEATHERLAND
My Lords, did the noble Lord hear his noble friend Lord Teviot say that the Government needed three months in order to sort themselves out? Does the noble Lord agree with that sentiment; and, if not, will he rebuke his noble friend for uttering such an outrageous philosophy?

§ LORD HANKEY
My Lords, may I support Lord Teviot's Question? May I ask the Government whether they will have another look at this whole subject, on the grounds that the bus companies do not seem to be able to provide for the need to which the noble Lord, Lord Teviot, has drawn attention and which I can certainly certify exists in my part of the country? Furthermore, would it not be desirable to draw the conclusion that the big bus companies do not seem to be able to run for the need that exists and that there might be a case for allowing very small operators to operate by private profit?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
Yes, my Lords; all possibilities are being considered. Traditional bus, postal bus, mini-bus, private car pooling, and the possibility of locally organised services—these are all being considered. The actual studies, I am sorry to have to tell the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, may take six months; but at the end of that time these studies will be complete. In answer to the second question of the noble Lord, Lord Hankey, the traffic commissioners have power now to license small vehicles.

§ BARONESS SEROTA
My Lords, while not wishing to prolong the debate on this Question, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will add consultation with hospital authorities to the list he has just given the House?

§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTON
My Lords, I am sure that my right honourable friend will take into consideration what the noble Baroness has said.