HL Deb 16 December 1971 vol 326 cc1260-3

2.43 p.m.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government why the British Waterways Board were not consulted or even informed in advance on the contents of the memorandum which announces their abolition.]

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD)

My Lords, as I said in reply to the noble Lord on December 9, the memorandum is itself a consultation document and discussions on it with the Board are proceeding.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, will the noble Lord put right a confusion which seems to be in the minds of a number of people in this House and elsewhere? He and his colleagues have said that consultation on this matter has been going on for 18 months. In point of fact, there has been no consultation going on on the subject of the break-up of the British Waterways Board and of its navigations. Will the noble Lord make it clear that there has been consultation, as everybody knows, for this period on water supplies, but none whatever on the subject of the break-up of the British Waterways Board?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I am glad to respond to the invitation to clear up any confusion that there may be about the nature of the consultations that have been going on. The circular which was issued a fortnight ago is based upon the Report of the Central Advisory Water Committee. That Committee took evidence from the British Waterways Board.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, the noble Lord has still not cleared up the confusion. Was not the evidence given by the Board, and the whole business of the Committee, concerned with the subject of water supply? It was not part of their duty to consider navigation. Was there not therefore consultation on the subject of water? Is the noble Lord aware that I have in my hand a letter from the Board saying that no consultation had taken place with the Board on the subject of navigation?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, the circular that has just been issued is concerned with the reorganisation of water services as a whole, including navigation, supply, sewerage, conservation and recreation. It is a consultation document and consultations are now beginning on that basis.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, is the Minister admitting, by implication, that no previous consultation has taken place with the British Waterways Board on the break-up of the Board?

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

Is my noble friend aware—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order, order!

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

Will the Minister answer, "Yes" or "No"?

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, the main point I want to make in answer to the noble Viscount's original Question is that what we are talking about is the consultation document, and consultation on the basis of that document is just beginning. The document has been published for only a fortnight. I also alluded to such consultation as there had been in the previous 18 months with the Central Advisory Water Committee.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that noble Lords on the other side should not be so sensitive about navigation alone?

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS

Order, order!

LORD SHACKLETON

Ask a question.

LORD NUGENT OF GUILDFORD

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that I am asking a question, and that if it upsets the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, he will have to listen to it for a moment? Is my noble friend aware that not only was the navigation interest not consulted in the British Waterways Board, but local authorities, river authorities, water undertakings and sewerage authorities were not consulted? No other authority was consulted, so this is even-handed treatment to everybody.

LORD SANDFORD

My Lords, I am aware of that.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that even the Chairman of the British Waterways Board did not know until 24 hours before the announcement in Parliament that his Board was going to be broken up? Is he aware that he was informed secretly, and told to keep the information "under his hat", 24 hours before the announcement was made? No other member of the Board, or anyone in the British Waterways Board, knew that any such thing was contemplated until the announcement was made in Parliament. Is this a way of dealing with industrial relations on the part of a Government who are busy getting out a code of industrial relations?

LORD SANDFORD

No, my Lords. All the other bodies in a similar position to the British Waterways Board, and the chairmen of the boards, were advised as a matter of courtesy, as is the usual form, shortly in advance of the publication of the document. We are now consulting on the basis of the document produced for the purposes of consultation.

VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDS

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware, after these Parliamentary "fun and games", that nevertheless everybody concerned with water is very keen that the whole subject of water supply and navigation should be taken up? We regard the method by which it has been done as clumsy, but, nevertheless, we regard the process as being very necessary.

LORD SANDFORD

Yes, my Lords. There is a great deal to be discussed with a number of authorities, including the British Waterways Board.