§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Queswhich stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are now in a position to make a Statement, either in full or in part detail, concerning the introduction of cheaper air fares in Europe, and also to give more details on the new package of North Atlantic fares, ratification of which is still under discussion in Geneva.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (LORD DRUMALBYN)My Lords, the IATA negotiations on European air fares have ended without an agreement, due largely to B.E.A.'s insistence on special low fares on certain routes. We are awaiting full reports from the United Kingdom airlines concerned, and shall discuss the position with them. The negotiations on North Atlantic fares have now been concluded. The agreement reached is much along the lines of those laid down by the airline chairmen and presidents in Honolulu last month, except that all fares have been increased by 4 dollars for each round trip to cover the costs of international route charges which some Governments began to levy on November 1, 1971. The agreement also includes reductions in normal economy fares at certain times of the year, and reductions in some individual excursion fares and in affinity group and inclusive tour group fares during the year.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, while appreciating the courtesy of the Minister, may I ask whether he realises that his caution over the past 12 months has been somewhat excessive; and although he has given certain details to-day, is he aware that the cheaper fares, the conditions and the actual dates when they come into operation are known? Is he further aware that in to-day's Press—and I have here The Times, the Guardian and the Financial Times—there is a large advertisement for National Airlines, giving details, and stating:
In accordance with the agreement just reached by the International Transport Association, National Airlines offers new fares from London…"6 et cetera?May I ask the noble Lord why we in this country cannot have similar details about our own airlines, either in the Press or in this House? Do we always have to wait?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the position is that these arrangements have not yet been formally submitted to the Government for approval. With regard to the winter inclusive group fares which are likely to be brought into effect on January 15, these are likely to be submitted in the near future, but it is unlikely that we shall receive the full details until probably the middle of next month. The information that is given in advertisements in the Press is very partial. For example, National Airlines are only referring to trips to the South and the Southern States.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I am sorry to be aggressive when the noble Lord is so pleasant, but may I ask him whether or not he would agree that these fares are part of this IATA package which was agreed? And I am asking the noble Lord whether a similar statement could not have been made on behalf of B.O.A.C. fares. Finally, as the first of these new fares comes into operation on January 15, and if I put down a Question for the noble Lord to answer about a week later, would the Government by then have official knowledge of what is going on, and could I have a reply?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, may I say straight away that the noble Baroness's forms of aggression are 1257 always agreeable. The difficulty is this: that certain Press statements have been made and the advertisements that have appeared make it abundantly clear that all these fares are subject to Government approval. Until Governments give their approval, these fares are not final. Secondly, because of the great complication of these fares I do not think it would be right to use Hansard for information which is available in every agency.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord saying that the fares which have been published are not necessarily the fares which are going to exist? If that is so, is that not an offence under the Trade Descriptions Act?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNNo, my Lords; because so far as I can see—though of course this is not a matter for me—the advertisements have covered themselves by saying, "All these fares are subject to Government approval."
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, the House is very patient, but I am asking the noble Lord why we cannot say the same, and that, so far as B.O.A.C. are concerned, these fares have been agreed subject to Government approval?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the answer to that question is simply, as I said before, that all we have at the moment as a guide are the Press statements. I think it would be wrong to make use of Hansard to publish Press statements.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, in support of the Question asked by the noble Baroness, this matter could be made very simple for the ordinary public to understand? We really are now totally bewildered as to what fares relate to different places, when they are to be changed, and so on. The suggestion by the noble Baroness could help to resolve a totally confused situation.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, all Governments have to give their approval to the fares structure. The fares structure is extremely complicated. There are something like 64 separate fares for the North Atlantic alone. These are sets of fares, and each of these is divided up 1258 according to the destination. I do not see how we can publish all that information.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, is it not a fact that the Government are just as confused as the public, and ought not the Government to do something about resolving the confusion?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNNo, my Lords, it is not a fact. The Government are quite clear about this and they do what is necessary to be done. At the first stage this will be approval so far as the North Atlantic fares are concerned and, as I have said, so far as the European fares are concerned discussions will have to take place with the airlines.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, ought not the Government to take the public into their confidence?
THE EARL OF SELKIRKMy Lords, can the Government say whether they approve the inclusive fares or only the scheduled fares?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, the Government have to approve the whole fares structure. What I said was that the group inclusive fares will come before the Government first, so far as North America is concerned, because they have to come into force on January 15.
§ LORD BESWICKMy Lords, the noble Lord having got himself into this difficulty over these questions, does he not now think that there was more force in our argument than he then accepted, that the Civil Aviation Authority should have been allowed to be the arbiter on the fares policy?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNNo, my Lords, because in all cases except the United States of America, this is a matter for Governments.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether there are not precedents where a Member of either House has made a statement or has quoted from the Press and this has been included in Hansard?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNYes, my Lords. It is not for me to say what should or should not go into Hansard; I am merely pointing out that this would 1259 be detailed information of a character that is readily available outside.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, in view of the indeterminate and never-ending state of these negotiations, does not the Minister think that it would be to the advantage of this country, and of this country's air passengers, if my noble friend Lady Burton were appointed to take charge of the British delegation in the fares negotiations?
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, I am not certain that it would be possible for her to take part in the negotiations on IATA, because that is a matter for the airlines.