§ 2.39 p.m.
§ LORD GORE-BOOTHMy Lords. I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what steps are being taken to provide the Foreign and Commonwealth Office with office accommodation more consistent with the requirements of modern business practice.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF THE ENVIRONMENT (LORD SANDFORD)My Lords, a programme of works to improve working conditions in the Old Public Offices is being implemented at the moment, including redecoration, refurnishing and new accommodation for visitors. My right honourable friend is aware that very much more needs to be done and is considering with the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how best to proceed in the longer term.
§ LORD GORE-BOOTHMy Lords. I am grateful to the Minister for reminding us of the minor works at present in progress. So far as the efficiency of the conduct of the business is concerned, may I ask whether he is aware that a quarter of a century ago this building, as a place to work in, was unanimously considered obsolete in accordance with the standards of that time? Is the Minister aware that eight years ago the then Minister of Public Works—whose name happened to be Mr. Geoffrey Rippon—said that the building was unsuitable for present, and therefore for future, purposes, and that the Duncan Committee came to a similar conclusion?
May I ask the Minister whether he can give any, or all three, of these assurances. First (and I put this without in any way wishing to prejudice what the decision will be) whether a decision can be expected in the near future as to how a radical modernisation can be carried out; secondly, whether he will press his right honourable friend—
§ LORD CHAMPIONSpeech!
§ LORD GORE-BOOTH—to bring about this decision quickly; and, thirdly, whether in doing so he will ensure consultation with those who have to work in the building, particularly those who will still be working there when the new building comes up for consideration.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I think I can best answer those three supplementary questions by assuring the noble Lord that my right honourable friend is very well aware of the very long time during which this issue has been under consideration. He is as anxious as everybody else is to arrive at a satisfactory and radical solution and is pressing on as fast as possible, but he is not yet in a position to make any further statement.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this really is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs? Is he aware that the staff accommodation in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is, in most cases, unsatisfactory, and in many cases positively disgraceful—unlike the accommodation for Ministers which tends to he elegant and spacious? Does be not agree that this situation of Ministerial affluence alongside official squalor needs some kind of urgent treatment; and is it not in fact the case that what we need is a new Foreign Office? It may be that the present one is more in keeping with the Government's policy, but it is not very good for the staff of the Foreign Office.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I am aware of this problem and so is my right honourable friend. He is anxious to solve it as quickly as possible.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, can the Minister say whether the future of the site between the Treasury and Central Hall has yet been decided, or whether this would be open for a Foreign and Commonwealth Office?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, that is rather a different question, if I understood the noble Lord to be referring to Parliament Square. If he will put down a Question I will answer it.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, may I ask whether the Minister can give us an assurance that when these new offices are built, adequate accommodation 991 will be provided for those civil servants who will be engaged on the drafting of Parliamentary Questions?
§ LORD SANDFORDYes, my Lords.
§ LORD SHERFIELDMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the plasterboard "rabbit hutch" in which I spent four years of my working life 25 years ago still houses an Under-Secretary? Will its abolition be included in the minor works?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I was not aware of that point, but I can almost certainly assure the noble Lord that it will be.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that all Governments, though notably this Government, have been lax in dealing with a problem which ensures major loss of efficiency in Whitehall? Will he consult with his noble friend the Lord Privy Seal to see whether some progress can be made which might quite significantly reduce the number of civil servants and the amount of paper? If the noble Lord has any doubt, would he try visiting the basement in the Foreign Office late at night and see whether he can find his way out? I once got lost there.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I think the noble Lord, Lord Shackleton, has taken us rather wide of the original Question, but the object of a full and complete solution to this problem is to provide satisfactory accommodation for all people who work in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
LORD FARINGDONMy Lords, is the Minister aware that any change in the external appearance of the present buildings would be regarded with great distaste by the majority of the population?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, my right honourable friend is fully aware of that fact.
§ LORD GLADWYNMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that the "rabbit hutch" in which the noble Lord, Lord Sherfield, worked, apparently so unhappily, was constructed by me at the end of the war, and was at least greatly superior to the attic in which I worked 992 for two years previously? Does not the noble Lord agree that in any reconstruction of the Foreign Office that may be undertaken it is best to think in terms of a headquarters staff next door to Downing Street, and the great bulk of the Departments being housed, not in squalor, but in comparative squalor, if you like, somewhere in the suburbs?
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, all these points are among those which are being considered by my right honourable friend and the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, would the noble Lord agree that not only do the conditions of Government office accommodation not comply with Lord Gore-Booth's Question to-day, concerning "modern business practice", but that in fact they do not comply with the Offices Act? I assure him that I can give him instances of that.
§ LORD SANDFORDMy Lords, I am advised that the work currently in hand brings the offices up to the standards required by the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act 1963.
§ LORD GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, while this is perhaps a superficial question, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is in a position to give an affirmative answer to the last assurance for which I asked; namely, that there will be continuous consultation with those who have to work there when the time comes for designing new accommodation?
§ LORD SANDFORDYes, my Lords.