HL Deb 14 December 1971 vol 326 cc1098-100

7.54 p.m.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I beg to move that this Report be now received.

Moved, That the Report be now received.—(Baroness Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie.)

LORD SANDYS

My Lords, I wonder whether, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Dulverton, who is absent at the moment in East Africa promoting some philanthropic work in regard to the Flying Doctor Service there, I may ask Her Majesty's Government if they have any further statement to make regarding the grey squirrel? Your Lordships will remember that there was considerable discussion during the Committee stage on November 30 last under Amendment No. 10.

LORD DENHAM

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Sandys for giving me this opportunity of telling your Lordships about the progress we have made towards meeting what is, I am confident, a widespread desire in this House that there should be more effective means of controlling the grey squirrel. As promised, I have brought to the notice of my right honourable friends the strong views which were expressed when the Bill was with us in Committee. I think it would be a fair summary of your Lordships' feelings if I said that, with the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, all those who spoke on this subject wanted the law to be amended so that grey squirrels could be poisoned if and when scientific research established that this could safely be done—and by "safely" I am sure that the House would have in mind that there should be no material risk to other forms of wildlife, and indeed domestic animals. That, my Lords, is the very nub of the matter because, as I have been at pains to explain, we are not yet satisfied that we have an adequate safety margin, although recent research suggests that it could soon be within our grasp.

It is for this reason that the Government have been attracted to the suggestion developed by the noble Lord, Lord Champion, and supported by my noble friend Lord Derwent, that the more satisfactory approach at this stage would be to introduce enabling powers under which the use of a suitable poison such as Warfarin could be permitted against grey squirrels provided essential safeguards were observed. In the short interval since that suggestion was made, there have been some urgent consultations with the wildlife, animal welfare and like interests concerned to obtain their first reactions to the principle of approaching the problem in this way. Although there is understandable apprehension in some quarters, it is clear that the principle of enabling powers would carry a wide measure of assent provided that no orders could be made without prior statutory consultation with organisations concerned and without the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

Clearly it would be an abuse of this constructive response to rush into legislation without giving the wildlife and other interests reasonable time to consider not only the principle—which, as I have said, appears to enjoy a wide area of consent—but also the actual form of the statutory changes that would be involved. Your Lordships will agree that a matter of this kind, which is of very real importance to so many people, cannot properly be transacted over the telephone in the brief interval between the Committee and Report stages in your Lordships' House. Nor would the Government wish to table an Amendment of this kind without giving your Lordships any margin of time to digest its implications. In these circumstances, I hope noble Lords will be content if the Government take steps to draft an Amendment which would enable orders to be made, on the lines I have described. This would give us a frame- work for urgent but more formal consultations with those concerned—and for this purpose, if it is acceptable to the House, I will personally take counsel with my noble friends, Lord Dulverton or Lord Sandys. In this way, the Government's aim would be to bring in their Amendment when the Bill reaches another place, and a new clause of the kind I am depicting would of course come back to your Lordships for detailed consideration at the concluding stages of the Bill.

On Question, Motion agreed to.